In this episode of Conversations4Citizenship, Dr. Nicole Brown addresses innovative approaches to qualitative research, particularly Photovoice. Dr. Brown discusses the philosophical and theoretical foundations of Photovoice, emphasizing its roots in feminist theory, empowerment, critical consciousness, and documentary photography. She explains how Photovoice can be used as a method or framework for research, enabling participants to communicate their experiences through photographs. Dr. Brown also shares her insights on the role of the researcher as a facilitator, the importance of understanding positionality, and the challenges of navigating power dynamics in participatory research. She highlights the growing acceptance of creative methods in research and the importance of rigorous justification for their use. Dr. Brown offers advice for early career researchers interested in using innovative methods like Photovoice, stressing the need for foundational understanding and the value of embracing failure and experimentation in the research process. The conversation also touches on the potential of emerging technologies like artificial intelligence (AI) in qualitative research and the ethical considerations surrounding their use. Throughout the conversation, Dr. Brown emphasizes the importance of empowering marginalized voices and utilizing creative methodologies to enhance research impact.
In this episode of Conversations4Citizenship, Dr. Nicole Brown discusses her innovative approaches to qualitative research, focusing on her book "Photovoice Reimagined." Dr. Brown, a former secondary school teacher turned researcher, emphasizes the importance of empowering marginalized voices through creative methodologies like photovoice, which uses photography to capture participants' experiences.
Dr. Brown explains the philosophical and theoretical foundations of photovoice, rooted in feminist theory and critical consciousness, and its role in enabling participants to express their experiences visually. She addresses the challenges of using creative methods in a conservative academic environment, stressing the need for rigor and theoretical grounding to validate these approaches.
Ethical considerations in visual research, such as participant safety and consent, are also discussed. Dr. Brown advises early career researchers to be reflexive and transparent about their positionality and power dynamics in their research.
The episode highlights Dr. Brown's integration of teaching, research, and activism, aiming to create tangible outcomes for marginalized communities. She encourages researchers to embrace creative methods and find supportive networks, noting the growing acceptance of these approaches in academic circles.
This episode is hosted by Dr. Stella Micheong Cheong. Please subscribe to the podcast through Apple, Google, Spotify, or Amazon Music. You may also follow @c4c_ed on Twitter. We look forward to hearing your feedback. If you would like to explore participating in our podcast and submit your blog post to the C4C, do not hesitate to reach out through the online participation form or email us at conversations4citizenship@gmail.com
Stella Micheong Cheong 00:03
Hello, listeners! I am Stella Mi-cheong Cheong from Yonsei University, South Korea. Welcome to today's episode of Conversations4Citizenship, where we have the privilege of hosting Dr. Nicole Brown, a distinguished researcher and author. Dr. Brown's recent publication, "Photovoice Reimagined," has sparked significant interest in the field of qualitative research and social sciences. Today, we will delve into her innovative approaches to research, her experiences in the field, and the challenges she has navigated throughout her career. Dr. Brown's work is renowned for its focus on empowering marginalized voices and utilizing creative methodologies to enhance research impact.
Stella Micheong Cheong 00:58
Hi, Nicole, how are you doing?
Nicole Brown 01:00
Well. Thank you very much, first of all, for having me. And yes, thank you. I'm fine, and it's good to meet you all.
Stella Micheong Cheong 01:06
Yeah, your work is so fascinating to me. So Nicole, shall we start to talk about your research journey? and what inspired you to focus on qualitative research method
Nicole Brown 01:21
Thank you. So I should say that I am not, you know, I didn't come into academia from a traditional route. I was actually a secondary school teacher by training, and it was only after sort of a few years of being a teacher, that I began a master's degree at the Institute of Education, now University College London. But at the time, it wasn't University College London yet, and I did my MA, my Master of Teaching. And as part of that, I was becoming, for the first time, sort of interested in doing research, trying to explore what I could do to improve my own practice, to make things better and easier and more interesting for my students, for my pupils. And that's really where I felt. I needed to do qualitative research. I couldn't, I couldn't have done what I was interested in with quantitative work. So it was quite a natural progression from being a reflective practitioner to being a teacher that, you know, practicing research in order to explore their practice. And to do that, it had to be done with qualitative research methods. It had to be in a way that would allow my pupils to voice their experiences, to tell me what they felt like, to talk to me about what it feels like to sit in my classroom. I'm not saying that I don't value the contribution that quantitative research brings. I certainly do, like, you know, the opportunity of reading the results, but I'm not interested in doing it myself (laugh). So I leave the quantitative side of things to other people, and I just focus on the qualitative work, because I really feel, I want to know what people think and feel and, yeah, what their experiences are like, and that's what really where my interest came in.
Stella Micheong Cheong 03:35
Yeah, fascinating. Then in terms of Photovoice, how do you define Photovoice and what makes it unique method in social research? Can you share a particular study where using portal voice dramatically changes the outcome or impact, impact on your research?
Nicole Brown 03:56
Thank you. So Photo Voice is, it's something that's really, really difficult to describe, because there are so many different terms that people use, and they conflate the ideas a little bit, although they're not exactly the same. So photovoice as in its original conception is a very particular framework for doing research where the researcher is really just a facilitator to enable local communities to do research on their own experiences, essentially, whereas there are other ways where you incorporate photographs in research that are not necessarily PhotoVoice research, but are often called that. And this is where my book comes in. So this is why I've called it PhotoVoice reimagined, rather than seeing all of these things as separate and you know, people conflating them and forgetting and. Um, you know, the origins and the basics of the fundamentals of those approaches I'm in the book, I'm outlining how Photovoice can be a method or a framework for doing research. Um, so where PhotoVoice, the framework is, as I've described earlier, where you know that you are a facilitator, and you're really just helping participants come together with stakeholders in order to bring about changes and transformation in their local communities. PhotoVoice as a method enables you, as a researcher, to involve the participants but not ask the too much of them, because not every community will be happy to be as involved as some of those transformational change activators and actors will and agents will need to be. So this is where that book comes in, that I'm kind of talking about, you know, photovoice as a method with photographs that are supplied by the researcher or photographs that are supplied by the participants. And then, obviously, what are the things that we have to look out for? What are the things that we have to do in terms of making sure that, you know, we're doing this research ethically, for example, and with those kinds of conceptualizations, you know, through looking at Photovoice as a method and then Photovoice as a framework, there are huge amounts of opportunities for application. And it's, you know, there is such a wealth of information out there, on people using photographs in their research in different ways and formats. And I'm just hoping that with the book, it becomes a little bit clearer where the researcher stands philosophically. Because a lot of the times when you read a research report, it says something like, you know, I've done photovoice, and then you you're trying to decipher, was that PhotoVoice as a method, or was it PhotoVoice as a framework? You know, where were the researchers? What is the positionality of the researcher? What were the contributions of the participants? And I'm hoping that with this book, people will begin to reflect on their position within that research a little bit more openly and transparently and with that, I mean, there are huge amounts of interesting studies that I'm mentioning in the book. There is one, for example, from America, where the dissemination phase of that Photovoice as a framework ends up being a radio show, for example, where the local community is putting together a podcast, radio show, and actually it's gaining such a momentum that it's no longer just a local community. It actually becomes something more interesting for the wider communities that have similar experiences. So it's that kind of thing that's really, really fascinating to see. But even where PhotoVoice as a method is used, you can see the impact it has on the participants being able to communicate their experiences and their feelings. A lot of the time, it's very difficult for participants to explain, you know, how they feel and what they experience in words and in interviews. Whereas if you give them the opportunity to go out there and take photographs and bring them back to the interview room, you have a whole different way of communicating, because the people will stage the photographs, they will think about what kind of photograph they are taking and what they are demonstrating and what they are sharing about their experiences.
Stella Micheong Cheong 08:44
Wow, amazing! Nicole, while you are talking, something is just popped up my mind in terms of positionality, because you highlight the role of research as a facilitator. So I wonder, to what extent are the researchers involved or help the participant to contribute their research. So can you share your experience or your opinion?
Nicole Brown 09:15
Yes, absolutely! I do a lot of work around and with participatory methods and participatory approaches in my own research. So I do try to hand over the responsibility of the research process as much as I can to the participants, but at the same time, I'm very, very aware that I have got a duty of care to my participants, and that's where it becomes really difficult to kind of navigate that space of handing over the responsibility but still making sure that those participants aren't running into difficulties. I mean, it's so easy to just say to a group of children, go away and do a research project on what it feels like to be, you know, a pupil in this school grounds, for example, and to explore your playground environment in the school without them then understanding, you know, the harm that they could potentially come to when they are talking to one another about potentially bad experiences in the playground. You know. So as a research, I feel like I have to still make sure that when they go off and do the data collection or the analysis, or, yeah, even the agenda setting, that it's ultimately, you know, that I have got a handle on it somehow, to make sure that they are not getting into situations where they may be discussing topics that are difficult for them, where they can't really help themselves, where they haven't got any support anymore. And that's where, in my own conceptualization, I have written an article about that as well, actually, about the scope and continuum of participatory research. And in that, I clearly argue that, ultimately, I don't think that as a researcher. I mean, this is my personal opinion, but I don't think as a researcher you can enable participants to be full co researchers, unless the co researchers are researchers by training, because then they know what they let themselves in for. So this is kind of where, where it gets really, difficult, but at the same time, even in projects that are not participatory, or not very participatory, I think because you mentioned positionality and the role of the researcher, I think there is always scope for the researcher to reflect on what they bring to the research and to also kind of reflect on how they respond to certain things. So there is another book that I wrote, which is called embodied inquiry research methods. And within that, there is, you know, we have, I'm outlining the different kinds of research foci that you can have in an embodied inquiry, and one of them is specifically the researcher's body in the field and what I'm looking at in that context is, for example, when you do analysis, you know there are certain things that you read in your interview transcript that are affecting you one way or another. And a lot of the times, we are taught to kind of ignore those hunches and to try and do the analysis from a cerebral point of view, very scholarly and, you know, and objective and whatever. And I'm actually saying, well, that's one way of doing it, but another way of doing it would be to look at it intuitively and say, actually, my gut tells me something here. There is this gut feeling. I mean, we've even got this thing that we say in English language that there's this gut feeling. And rather than ignoring it, I'm saying, Okay, let's tap into it. Let's try and see where that takes me. So in the embodied inquiry. Therefore, I often recommend people use those kinds of intuitive ways of making sense of their data and also respond to it creatively, so through poetry or paintings or installations, and obviously in the photovoice book, I'm saying something similar. I'm saying, you know, well, actually, you can use photographs as an analytical tool. You can stage your own photographs and demonstrate that this is analysis of the data. So there is a lot there where you know, rather than saying. This is what I bring to my research, and I'm trying to remove myself from it, I'm saying, well, let's embrace that as an opportunity to say, okay, it does mean that I'm coming at this research from a very particular point of view, but at the same time, it therefore means that I can bring something to it that nobody else can.
Stella Micheong Cheong 13:49
Yeah, do agree. And thank you for informative response. And my next question is about a philosophical and theoretical foundation on Photovoice, so in your book the portal voice, reimagine you discuss the philosophical and theoretical foundation, and could you elaborate on this foundation and their importance? Why you highlight this theoretical foundation, and how do you see portables as a tool for social change, particularly in empowering participants?
Nicole Brown 14:25
Yes, so thank you very much for that question. I think it's really important with all of the research methods, whichever research method you're using, it's always important to go back to the foundations to really understand what it is that we're trying to achieve with that, and that will then help you to decide whether that approach is appropriate for your research question, or for your research project or not. So the example that you know that I often give in terms of why is the foundation so important? And if we're looking at the foundation of focus group interviews, for example, I know that I'm going away from Photovoice, but I'm coming back to that. Just bear with me a little bit here. If you're looking at the foundations of focus group interviews, focus group interviews were invented or recreated as an opportunity to essentially observe hierarchies and dynamics that happen in a group. So you would be having you know, different people looking at the same advertisement, for example, and then you would have one person voicing a very strong opinion, and then watching how that one person can change whoever else is in that group, and whoever has his opinion, who's in that group. So it's kind of an an opportunity to really see how group dynamics work. Unfortunately, nowadays, focus group interviews are often just used as a money saving activity, because it's easier to interview five people in one hour, rather than five people one hour each, because then it's five hours, and you can then say, well, I've done 25 interviews. In reality, you've only done five, because you've done five times five people. So it's, it's something that's really, really worrisome, because it actually completely ignores the fact that the power dynamics that are at play are not being analyzed. And that's where I'm coming from with the foundations. And this is why it is important to understand what Photovoicehas got as a foundational philosophical background, to really understand what it is it is trying to achieve. So Photovoice as a method goes back to, you know the idea of feminism, that's the first thing to say. So originally, it was very, very much an approach to empower women, and in this case, women in China, to enable to talk about their experiences of what it is like to be a particular, in this case, ill person, but an ill woman in China in that particular point in time. So it's about trying to amplify the voices that are often marginalised. So yes, it is coming out of feminist theory nowadays. Obviously, even Wang and Burris (1997) who invented the Photovoice approach, used it actually with men as well, but they used it in such a way that it was still about men who would be marginalised. So they were looking at homeless men, for example. So it's not like any kind of man in society, but it's people that are marginalised. So that is important to know, to really understand what the photo voice as a method can do. So there's obviously the kind of the idea of the feminist theory as one strand, another strand is empowerment and critical consciousness. So that's going back to various . And again, this is about sort of recognising that there are power structures at play which make it difficult for some people to break those barriers down to their experiences. So again, with that in mind, you can already see how this is very much an activist approach of doing research. So if I'm laying out these kinds of foundations and somebody says to me, Well, I don't want to do I don't want to be an activist as a researcher, then I would suggest, well, then perhaps Photovoice as a framework, is not appropriate for you. It may be good for you as a method, but not as a framework, because the framework is very much a feminist, critical conscious approach. The third element is, then, obviously within Photovoice as a framework is documentary photography. So again, you know, if somebody turns to me, comes to me and says, Well, I'm not really interested in going into all this business with photography, well, then you've chosen the wrong thing here, you know. So that's why it's really important to look at the basics, at the foundations, and really understand and with the with the photography. I mean, the basis of that is that, you know that principle of a picture tells 1,000 words, you know, to sort of say that actually the picture is relevant, is important, and tells us more than what people can tell us when they are talking to us. So in the Photovoice as a framework, we have got this approach where the photograph is is instrumental, and we can't not analyse the photograph. We have to analyse the photograph, because the photograph is the data, with Photovoice as a method. There is an option there where you can use the photograph as an opportunity to, kind of, you know, developing a conversation where you may not necessarily use the photograph as data in itself, and you may not analyse it. I personally find it a shame when people don't analyse the photographs, because for me, that's the most interesting part of the data. But at the same time, you know, if somebody says to me, I'm not confident doing. That I'm not comfortable doing that. Well, fair enough. Then, then don't, but, you know, don't say that you have done Photo Voice as a framework when you've then basically ignored all the basic tenets of what makes the photo voice as a framework, as a potential, you know, research approach.
Stella Micheong Cheong 20:19
Alright.Oh, thank you, Nicole. And this is really powerful and deep, detailed explanation. And you know, during the pandemic and after the post pandemic, thanks to technology advance, we all researchers easily use technology in our research. So I wonder what emerging trend or technology do you see shaping the future of qualitative research, especially Photovoice?
Nicole Brown 20:56
Yeah, I think so. I am talking about that a little bit in the final chapter, where, and which is called photovoice now and in the future. And I'm talking about it in that, obviously, in the book, I'm literally just focusing on photographs. But actually, with the kind of technology that we've got, you could essentially do the same thing with videos and use it as a moving image project. With the moving image project, you have to be a little bit more careful around, you know, like, you know, different kinds of things that you have to think about with the photograph already. You have to think about, you know, who's in the shot, who's taking the shot, where am I taking the shot? And, you know, and have I asked people consent for, you know, taking the photograph off them. Those kinds of things with the video. When you take videos, it's more likely that you get people or animals or things in the shot, where you have to be very careful about how you edit that together and edit it out or blur it, or whatever. So there is, in terms of the technical skills that's required using video compared to photographs, is definitely more difficult to do. But I'm not saying don't do it. You know, if this is something that you want to play around with and learn, then by all means, do it. And actually, you know, it's there is an opportunity to use the videos in that respect, just like you're using the photographs. The other thing that I'm talking about is obviously the use of artificial intelligence (AI). I mean, I know that AI is one of those things that's being discussed quite a lot around the world at the moment, despite the fact that it's been around for quite a while. But for some reason, there is this hype right now about it. But it is true that you know, with how things have panned out in the recent months and couple of years that certain platforms make it easier now to generate your own AI pictures than it was before. So five years ago, it may not have been quite as easy as you know, find on Google AI generator, and then you find, you know, you've got 15 platforms on how they can generate the images, and that's something to consider. I mean, it's interesting to do that, but at the same time in the book, actually, I do mention one case where that was in Spain, I think, where there were some pictures that appeared of young children naked. So they were kind of pornography type pictures, and they were actually not real pictures. They were, you know, created with the use of AI. So that's, you know, that's obviously the downside of it. I mean, there are obviously opportunities to think through, but at the same time, you know, there is obviously the danger that people are going to misuse the system. So this is something that I think we have to keep an eye out on and really consider. The other thing that I feel is really difficult, so I personally don't use AI generated photographs, because I always wonder who owns that photograph? Then, is it the AI platform that owns it because they have created it, or is it me? Because that platform could only create it with the prompt that I have generated. So it's kind of, you know, whose thing is this? And that's something that I feel very difficult to navigate, so I basically just stay away from it (laugh). But it's not to say that everybody should. I think that some there are opportunities for people to engage with that.
Stella Micheong Cheong 24:28
Yes, I do agree there is a two side, the negative and positive side. Using ai, ai is generated or AI, yeah, AI powered software and Nicole. I'd like to talk about data analysis, because when it comes to data analysis, I always struggle to handle data. So let me tell you my doctor research briefly. In my case, I. I collected the data by interviewing and also, I requested my research participant to write down their autobiographies. So I use digital autobiographical writing platform, using Google Docs, and surprisingly, most of my research participants, they put beautiful photos and also the YouTube video clips, because I looked into North Korea migrant, transnational migration trajectory from North Korea, China, the third country, and South Korea, even in the UK. And throughout their migration, they took a picture a lot, and then they attach it the portals. But it's really hard to analyse this kind of photos. So at the time, I didn't do anything. So I just wonder your thoughts, your method, or your advice, anything, how can we handle or analyse those photos.
Nicole Brown 26:16
What you've just described, that people you know, like put those photographs in by themselves. Essentially, that is just giving you, you know, an insight into how human communication works, doesn't it? Because, you know, there are certain things that you just can't describe, there are certain things that we just can't talk about, and that's why it's just so much easier to just have a photograph. And that will tell you all, but like you say, then on the side of the researcher, it's kind of well, what am I doing with this now? And what I have found, a lot of the times, people who don't analyse the photographs, it's because they are not quite comfortable or confident in analysing visual materials, and it's really funny, as far as I'm concerned, because when you're given an interview transcript, I would suggest that very rarely are we actually taught how to do a code. We're not really taught that. It's just here is the interview, read through it, and identify some codes and some categories. And somehow we are expected to do that, and somehow we are doing that. But with photographs, it's like, well, here's the photograph, go and look at it and analyse this. And suddenly we're like, oh, I can't do that. So why? Why is that? And when I began thinking about why that is. I realised that a lot of the times, people jump to conclusions too quickly with photographs, and then they've got nowhere to go. So, for example, so in a lot of my training sessions, I actually show a photograph, and what you see on the picture is literally a person punched over a laptop. But when you ask people, What do you know? Can you tell me what you see in the picture? They tell me a woman who's tired. That is totally interpretation already, because what you see is a person hunched over a laptop. You don't know that she's tired, that is an interpretation that's happening. You don't know that that's actually the person is a woman, that is also an interpretation from the long hair. So all of those things that we are jumping to conclusions so quickly that we don't even realise that this is already analysis, then you're looking at this photograph of a woman who's tired over her laptop. And then I'm saying, okay, analyse this. And then you're going, well, I can't analyse this. This is a woman over the laptop who's tired. Well, yeah, that is because that is already the analysis. So in my training sessions, I always teach people to go back to the basics. Really. Have a look at the photograph first. What do you see? What is it that you see? Look at the composition, look at the light, look at the colours, look at what you know, what objects can you see in there? And then ask yourself, and what does that tell me? Now, what does that mean? And that is your interpretation. So I would suggest, again, with your own photographs, Stella, I would love for you to go back to one of those photographs and have a look at it. See what you see. Ask yourself, what do I see here? And then the next question, and what do I make of that? And that is your analysis. And then you've got a really, really wealth of data that is so rich and so interesting that it would be a shame not to use it to be honest.
Stella Micheong Cheong 29:44
Oh, yes. I will do that. Thank you so much, Nicole, because I didn't do, I didn't get any information and advice to analyse these beautiful photos and also very unique photos because they took these photos in North Korea.
Nicole Brown 30:08
That's great. I've got an article out there which is called the systematic visual textual analysis, a framework for connecting the textual with the visual, you know, of analysis. And what I've just explained here is something that I have written about in that framework. So do have a look at it. But yeah, I mean, it would be a shame not to use those photographs. And then the other thing is, obviously, once you've kind of done the analysis, you know, like cerebrally, and done the, you know, the coding and the interpretation and that side of it, you can create your own photographs, or you can create your own, you know, like creative response to those photographs, maybe write a poem on it, or maybe write a short story, whatever it is. But you've got other ways of actually, you know, making that data analysis interesting for yourself, but then also interesting for the audience. I mean, obviously even you could, even that depends on the copyright again,you know, this is one of the things that I do mention in the Photovoice book as well, that you have to kind of be careful about copyrights and ownership rights and intellectual property rights. But ultimately, you know, you could even have a photo book with literally just a collection of photographs. There are loads of artists out there who produce photo books that we then buy in the shops. You know, we've got Steve Bloom, who's done loads of photograph books about animals on in different areas of the world. And we've got Steve McQueen, who's got all of these people portrayed. So those photo books do exist. It's not something that doesn't exist. It's just not necessarily, um, sort of that recognised within the research realm, but it's something that's out there and that people buy and that people look at. So you've got all these kind of, you know, opportunities to, you kind of engage with, with the data in that way.
Stella Micheong Cheong 32:00
Okay. Thank you so much. Nicole, this is really helpful. And you know, we all have challenging to invite our participant and engage fully into our research methodologically. What methodology do you find it most effective in engaging participants from diverse background in Photovoice project?
Nicole Brown 32:29
Um, I think that's a really, really it's a great question. It's a very, very good question, but it's also very difficult one to answer. Um, because I think it depends on, it depends on so many factors. It depends on the research topic. It depends on how important that research topic is for the participants themselves. It then depends on the relationship that you are able to build with your participants. So there are so many different factors at play. So I mean, like I said to you, I don't use videos, for example, in research. That is not to say that you can't engage participants with videos. I think you can. It's just my own limitations are such that I'm not very convincing in taking that forward, and I'm not, you know, I can't build that relationship with my participants around video making, because I myself have got my limitations, you know, technically and technologically in that respect. So I think it's more to do with who you are as a researcher and how comfortable you are with yourself. I mean, I would suggest that the way to engage participants is just being authentic, being your true self, and not and not pretend. You know, if you don't like quantitative work, like I just said earlier, that I don't do that then, then don't do it. You know, don't try to convince people to get engaged with a survey if you yourself aren't actually convinced that that survey is of interest, you know. So it's something that's really at the heart of being a good researcher, I think, is recognising your own strengths and limitations and then playing to those strengths and overcoming the limitations. I think that's what, makes anyone a good researcher? And some people do really crazy stuff and great, great, crazy stuff, and other people are doing very conventional and traditional stuff. And It's not said that one is better than the other. It's that suits that person, that project, those participants.
Stella Micheong Cheong 34:40
Thank you so much, Nicole, and as an early career scholar, I really wonder your advice, while we conduct research, qualitative research or participatory research, like Photo voice, so what? How do you mentor the Early Career Scholar? Doctor researcher is especially those interested in using innovative research method like portable voice and what common people before should researchers avoid?
Nicole Brown 35:16
Yeah, I think it's really that is really important. I think it's really important to look after the next generation of researchers and to kind of support everybody going through that process. I think ultimately what I try to do is I try to give my doctoral students, but also early career research colleagues that I have the space to be comfortable with, you know, sort of discussing any kind of concerns they've got with me, and also to experiment and make mistakes. I think the problem that we've got with how higher education works and how the publishing system works is that we all report everything being perfect and great and went smoothly, and there were no errors and no mistakes and no hiccups and that's problematic, because reality isn ever a straight line from the beginning to the end of a research you ask anyone honestly about the approach, you know, and what happens during their research, and they will tell you, Well, this went wrong. That was a problem here. It was delayed. You know, that is, that is the normal process of research, and we don't really talk about that kind of failure or delays and problems and challenges often enough. So I think whenever people come to me and say they want to use creative methods. I am quite sort of, I'm very welcoming of that. I do say to people, that's great. What do you know about the creative methods? So I do check their foundational understanding, and if they don't, then I give them opportunities to learn about those foundational understandings and to could really, kind of demonstrate that they know why they're using the creative methods, not because it's a fad, and not because it's, you know, it's something that the journal wants. It doesn't work that way. You have to with me. You have to justify why you're doing it in that particular way. And then I do allow, you know, I say to things like, well, when you're doing this, bear in mind that may happen. So for example, you know, a lot of the I've got, I've just got one doctoral student at the moment who's just beginning to recruit participants. And in this particular project, is very, very participatory, and therefore also quite time consuming for the participants. And I've said, you know, it's great. I think you should go ahead and do it, but bear in mind that you may struggle to recruit people because you're quite demanding of them. What is the approach that you can take? How can you mitigate that? And we were then looking at potential of splitting up the research into different phases, where people can opt in one phase and not necessarily have to do the whole lot, for example. So there are always ways of mitigating potential issues if somebody wants to do I mean, I did that with my own doctoral research. I had several phases. Some people did all of it, but some of them didn't, and that's fair, because you are asking for a lot of commitment from the participants. And in my case, I had participants who were chronically ill. So you know, I knew that I was very, very demanding on their time, on their energy, on their efforts. So it's kind of trying to make sure that, you know, you navigate that space empathetically in that way. And that means that, yes, it's not straightforward. You don't have 25 participants. You may have three here, 10 there, you know, 15 there. Overall, you still get through your 25 but, you know, it's laid out in a different way. And I think that's what, how I try to mentor people through that research process that you know, there are potential risks or potential issues that encounter, and what can you do about that? How can you counteract that? I think with the creative methods specifically, they are becoming more commonplace photographs in research as Photovoice as method or Photovoice as framework. Obviously, was completely new in the 1990s but now, actually, when you when you type it into a Google search, you get so many articles, it's quite overwhelming, to be honest. So it's, it's something that's, you know, becoming more generally acceptable. And yet, in some disciplines, creative methods, especially when you're diving into the creative analysis that I do, for example, does get some criticism, and that's fair, you know? I mean, we are critiquing each other's work. So I'm not saying, you know, that it shouldn't be critiqued. I think it needs to be critiqued, but at the same time, therefore, for me, it's very important with early careers researchers and doctoral students to really prepare them for those kinds of arguments that they need to be able to justify what they do and why they're doing it.
Stella Micheong Cheong 40:27
Yeah, do agree, and it's my last question, Nicole, so I wonder how bridge the gap between your teaching and research work, and can you talk about intersection of your teaching and research work?
Nicole Brown 40:49
Yeah, I don't. So I actually have three different areas that intersect. For me, it's the teaching, the research and the activist work. So I tend to kind of, you know, because for me, I can't do research for my personal gain or for my academic career progression. When I do research, it has to lead to some tangible outcomes for someone else, and that's where the activist work comes in. So I can't, you know, I don't feel comfortable doing research, for example, on ableism in academia, or, you know, chronic illnesses and neurodivergence and disabilities in higher education, without then doing some lobbying work or advocacy work or activist work that will make things better for those people that have participated in my research and many others who haven't participated in my research, but that's why the research and the activist work are quite closely interlinked. I can't do the one without the other, and the same is true for the teaching and the research. So I'm very much, you know, when I'm in my classroom, as I'm you know, as somebody who lectures on disabilities and chronic illnesses in higher education or creativity in education, whatever it is, I never remove the researcher from that teacher. I you know, it's I am the researcher as much as I am the teacher in that particular moment and as I am seeing people's responses to what I say. I feed off that for the teaching, but it also informs my research practice. I then see, oh, okay, well, that's interesting. I hadn't realised that, so I need to investigate that further. And how do I, how do I then, you know, use that so I am teaching a module that's based on my own research, that's come out of my own research, um, and I'm, yeah, currently working on some other modules which are similar where I'm incorporating a lot of my research into the teaching, but equally, the teaching feeds into the research again and into The activist work. So those three things are so intertwined. I also do a lot of projects with students, actually, where I'm asking the students to be participants in research, in participatory research where I try to hand over my again, my responsibility over the research process to them as much as I can within the confines of the of the project, but I do kind of engage them as co-researchers, as co-authors. So I've published several articles with students, because I do think that, you know, the one has to inform the other. I can't separate that and that kind of intersection is something that that's really difficult to separate. And in the books, I'm talking about thinking acting being in that respect, and I think that's what it comes down to, that you are thinking you're acting, and you are in that moment. Is that thinking acting being that that's, for me, at the core between that, that, that you know, in those men diagram between the research, the teaching and the activism, that's the thinking, acting, being. That's where I am, that's where I'm at most at home. But it's very difficult to explain, because sometimes you do things and it's like, well, is that research? Now? Yeah, no, not quite. It's kind of more activism. It's not quite teaching, it's not quite research. So where do you sit? And that that makes it then difficult, often, to explain to people what it is that you do, and because it can't be nicely, neatly categorised, you know, it doesn't, it doesn't fit into a simple box.
Stella Micheong Cheong 44:37
Yeah, yeah. But, you know, Nicole, how I wonder you how to manage your time, because it's really hard to manage these three things.
Nicole Brown 44:49
A lot of people ask me that to be honest. And I honestly, I don't know, I think, I think that's probably why I am sitting in that middle, because I can't separate those things out. So it's not you, you're managing the time becomes more difficult when you have to allocate 50 hours to this and 50 hours to that, and 50 hours to this, whereas with me, because it all becomes one thing, you know, it's 150 hours on everything, and somehow it works (laugh).
Stella Micheong Cheong 45:19
Oh, amazing. But once again, Nicole, thank you so much for inspiring presentation. Given the time constraint I'm going to hand over to my colleague, Adam. Adam?
Adam Peter Lang 45:33
Thank you very much, Stella. And fascinating. What you've just been talking about, a lovely conversation that you've been having. I've just got a couple of reflections, and then I've got a couple of questions, which I may ask. The first one is, I just reflected very much on your last point, actually, because a lot of our listeners are practitioners, they're also researchers and they're also activists. They might be those three things at the same time, and they might not be, but I think it's very interesting that we're having discussions with you, and you're and you've flagged up all those three points, which I think is very important. Can I just ask you, you're saying that this creative message, and particularly your methods you're talking about here are more acceptable, perhaps, if that's the right word, perhaps. But I mean, one of the things I found, and I mean, I was a former youth worker, a former secondary teacher and secondary leader, before I returned to study, I found, actually, universities be to be quite traditional, to be quite conservative with a small c. And I was wonder, how do you deal with that? Is there a pushback by some academics about this way of creative methods. I mean, you've explained very much how you do it in a very rigorous way, and probably you have to do it in an even more rigorous way, the more traditional modes. But do you find that that's there, or is that loosening up a bit? Now, I just wondered what you thought about that.
Nicole Brown 46:58
I think, I think so. I really, it's really difficult question, and I appreciate that you asking it. I really, really do so, because people do ask me about that, that pushback, I don't get it anymore now, right or not to the extent that I used to, but that's probably because I have established myself in that field. So people kind of recognise, oh, actually, yeah, there is some expertise, there is some theory, there is some rigour behind it. But at the beginning, when I set out to do that, I used Lego as one of my medium for research, for data collection and I was, I'm still very, very fond of Lego as a research data collection approach for many, many reasons. But what a colleague at work did say at one point in a meeting, were you that won that place with Lego? And that's quite you know, at the time, I was really stung. It really hurt. I didn't I did. I don't think I responded to it at all. I think I probably just kind of swallowed down and let it, let it be, let that hang but, but at the time, I felt really, really hurt by that comment, because it kind of showed how little value my research was considered to have. And at the same time, actually, now I'm looking at it and I'm going, well, actually, this tells me more about you as a researcher than it tells me about me as a researcher. Yes, because I am playing with Lego, but I know why I do that, and I know the rigour and the theory that is behind it. And with you making a comment like that makes me, makes me understand that you don't. So I think when I say that, it becomes more generally acceptable. It's probably, like I said, because I have established a certain reputation that helps me personally. But I also feel that there are many more associations now, when they have conferences that they've got a creative stream within it. So you look at the BERA, for example, the BERA conference, they've got a special interest group that's dealing with creative methods. When you're looking at the Social Research Association, they've got a conference every year where they have creative presentations, but they also have creative submissions to the conference, like, you know, games and posters and all sorts of different fabrics and installations, whatever people create. So I think that creative stream does come into more general kind of conferences now as well. And the other thing is that creative community, as in the creative research methods community, has grown in the UK quite considerably over the last few years. So I think we kind of find each other a little bit more. We are kind of more connected every year there are, you know, you go to conferences, like I said, with the creative streams, and you kind of see the same people. And it's really quite a nice community now. And I think it's a very, very welcoming community. As well, one where there aren't that many hierarchies. I mean, I've been to quite weird conferences where there was very clear distinction between, well, here are the professors, and here are the early careers researchers, and there is you as the doctoral student. You know, you're on the bottom of the rung and bottom of the food chain. But actually, in this creative in the creative realm, I find that the hierarchies dissolve. You know, there will be a very, very high, highly reputable professor of several years of expertise and standing sitting next to the doctoral students playing Lego together. You know, it's that kind of situation that becomes really, really interesting. So I think for anyone who's struggling to find you know where they belong, I would suggest, you know, follow people like myself, Helen Kara, Dawn Mannay in the UK, and Jon Rainford is another one. And you look at all of us, and you you'll find us all together in different conferences, because, yeah, that's the kind of the crowd that we are surrounding ourselves with.
Adam Peter Lang 51:04
Thank you. That's very well explained. And I think that's encouraging our listeners to be not ambitious, but to be creative, but to look at different ways of doing things. Are you touching there? Very much and earlier on, about the power dynamics that run through all of this, and I just wanted to ask you, sort of about the power dynamics for the people that you're researching with. And you, you talk very well, I think about that approach. And I noticed that you've got a role, I think, at UCL-IOE for ethics. Yes, I am so, yeah. And you, you mentioned that all the way through and obviously extremely ethical. I suspect, I don't know whether I'm right so, but going into this approach, you need to be even more conscious of your ethics. I mean, you touched on that use of photographs and even the use of videos. I mean, what advice would you give to doctoral researchers about, well, I mean, getting through the hurdle, first of all is getting ethics approval, which is quite a challenge actually, and can be quite traditional. But also, are there any other sort of points that you want to just sort of pass on to our listeners about that very important aspect of you are very powerful as the researcher, and you need to really make sure that you are not taking anything for granted with the people that you're researching with. I don't know whether you had any further reflections on that.
Nicole Brown 52:35
I think, yeah, I think your point is, you're making the point, and I'm just going to sort of essentially repeat what you say, but, you know, make it more transparent and explicit. But I think it's, you know, getting through the ethics approval is actually very, very simple. All you need to do is be very, very consciously aware of what you do, why you do it, and how you do it, and then be explicit about it. There is no secret. There is no there is nothing to hide. So it's very much about, you know, are you aware of the power that you have, the power that you hold in that relationship? And if not, then that's where the problems come in. So I think it's just like you say, it's about being very reflexive. And you know, like really being aware of your own positionality and then explaining what you do in such a way that it makes sense. There is, you know, ethics reviewers are people who use their common sense to identify whether this project can go ahead or not. And if you're saying that you know you're giving people a camera, and you send them into the woods to take some photographs. Where everybody's going to go? Well, hang on a minute. That's not safe. We don't know where in the woods they gotta go. They're going to get lost. You know, all of those things. But if you're saying, Well, I'm sending them into the woods, here is how I'm going to make sure that they are safe. Here is on how I'm going to make sure that they find their way around, that they're not getting lost, then what's the problem? There isn't a problem anymore. So it's that kind of relationship. It's really about, you know, really just knowing the potential issues that people may come across and the potential issues that may come up.
Adam Peter Lang 54:16
Thank you.I mean, just one last point, if I can. I mean, in fact, the last meeting that we had, or the last interview we had. It was interesting because one of the researchers had done, obviously, during the pandemic, and also because they were doing it across international boundaries, they were doing online research. And do you have any sort of thoughts about how you can marry the two creative methods with online research?
Nicole Brown 54:40
I'm sure they are, but I did that myself. So my research, yes, so my doctoral research was done before the pandemic, right? It was done completely remotely, with all of the creative approaches. So I had an idea, which was called the identity box, and I basically asked a question. In response to the question, I asked the participants to put the objects that represent their answers into the box, take a photograph and send me the photograph. So I was doing the analysis from the photographs. But essentially, it was actually quite a material way of doing research in their own homes, because they were working with objects in the box. I mean, my idea was even grander than that, because the idea that I had was that by the end of the project, I would send them some money for them to send me their boxes, and I would be able to have a gallery exhibition with those boxes. The only problem with that was, one thing that I hadn't envisaged the first question in my five questions was, who are you? And some people put in passports, wedding certificates, wedding rings, you know, all of those things are clearly, I couldn't ever ask for the real boxes and the real objects. There was no way I was going to be able to do that. So which is where, you know, the creative analysis comes back in, because you can create your own installation, your own response to that. You can create your own box from, you know, replicated with some of those objects. Um, but yeah, I was never going to be able to actually exhibit the real boxes, because it was just too, too personal, too identifiable. It was very, very powerful,(laugh)
Adam Peter Lang 56:27
Well, thank you, Nicole. I think we're now sort of coming to the conclusion, and I just wondered if you'd like to, is there anything that you wanted to tell us that you haven't had a chance to or about the interview or your work or anything.
Nicole Brown 56:41
Yeah,thank you. I think one of the things that I would like to share with your listeners is to not be scared of the naysayers, to really just kind of push through, you know, maybe use the opportunity of the naysayers to really sort of reflect on, do I know my theory? What kind of arguments can I bring forward? And, like I said, The Lego comment for me, you know, that was something that that really heard and it stayed with me all these years, but it's really spurned me on to understand or to be better at explaining why I do what I do. So I, you know, don't let yourself be put down by something that some people don't understand, and find the crowd that will understand you. I think that's the most important part. We all just have to find our network where we belong.
Adam Peter Lang 57:28
Well, thank you, Nicole, you've given us a great deal to think about, and both for your methods, but also, I think a very you've demystified a number of things, actually, about research and about your particular methodology. So I think that's, that's fantastic, and it's very you've created a lot of thought. I mean, one thing that resonated me quite a bit was you were talking earlier about not jumping to conclusions too quickly, and that can apply to any form of research. You know, don't go, allow it to get you, to take you somewhere. And you've really amplified that, I think, very, very well in the interview that we've had today. So I'd like to thank you very much indeed for your contribution. I look forward to meeting you again and working with you, hopefully again with the conversations four citizenship podcast. Thank you so much indeed.
Nicole Brown 58:18
Yes, I would love that. Thank you very much. And thank you very much for having me. And anyone who wants to contact me, please do. I'm always happy to have a conversation over a coffee.
Adam Peter Lang 58:27
Great, and also, the other thing that we do through Stella is that if you've got, obviously your particular work or papers, I know you've got this book, but if you want to share any of that and other things, then we put it up on our on our link, so that our listeners can follow you in that respect. So thank you so much, indeed. That's really brilliant, and I wish you well. Now I'm going to pass back to Stella, who's in Korea at the moment, back to you, Stella.
Stella Micheong Cheong 58:51
Oh, thank you Adam and Nicole. Now I'm closing the episode. I'm Stella Cheong. Thanks for listening to conversations4citizenship. We hope you enjoyed this episode. Be sure to subscribe to conversations4citizenship and look for us on Twitter @c4c_ed. A transcript of today's conversation with Nicole Brown can be found www.conversations4citizenship.com. This episode of conversations four citizenship was produced by me, Stella Cheong, Adam Lang and Kamille Beye.recorded and sound mixed by Stella Cheong. Thank you so much. Take good care. Bye!