In the season three premiere of the #conversations4citizenship podcast, Prof. Keith Barton and Prof. Li-Ching Ho explain why they treat social and civic education as a single concept in their book, rather than addressing them separately. They also introduce the concept of "critical harmony," which emphasizes the importance of relationships, values diversity, embraces conflict, and seeks balance in power dynamics. Throughout the episode, Keith and Li-Ching discuss the relevance of justice and harmony in various global contexts, acknowledging that interpretations and applications may differ based on geopolitical and geographical factors. They stress the importance of preparing young people to live together justly in a diverse world and highlight the role of education in fostering critical harmony. Here is a brief biographical note from Professors Keith Barton and Li-Ching Ho: * Keith C. Barton is Professor of Curriculum and Instruction at Indiana University. A former elementary teacher, his work emphasizes history education and civic participation in the United States and internationally. He is co-author, with Linda Levstik, of Doing History: Investigating with Children in Elementary and Middle Schools (2023) and Teaching History for the Common Good (2004). He is the recipient of the 2023 Career Research Award from the National Council for the Social Studies. **Li-Ching Ho is Professor of Social Studies Education at the University of Wisconsin-Madison. Her research, conducted primarily in East and Southeast Asia, focuses on global civic education, issues of diversity in social studies education, and climate change education. In particular, her work has been centered on how concepts such as justice, harmony, meritocracy, civility, and democratic deliberation are addressed in different national education systems. She is a co-editor of The Palgrave Handbook of Global Citizenship and Education (2018).
In this episode of the #conversations4citizenship podcast, host Dr. Stella Micheong Cheong interviews Professors Keith Barton and Li-Ching Ho about their new book "Curriculum for Justice and Harmony: Deliberation, Knowledge, and Action in Social and Civic Education". Keith and Li-Ching explain that they treat social and civic education as a single concept to be inclusive of the various related subjects taught in different countries. A key focus of their book is on the intersection of justice and harmony in citizenship education.
Keith explains that they draw on Amartya Sen and Martha Nussbaum's capabilities approach to justice, which focuses on providing people the opportunities they need to lead the lives they choose. Li-Ching adds that harmony is an important but often overlooked educational aim that is about building relationships. They propose the concept of "critical harmony" which values diversity, embraces conflict as a means for progress, and seeks balance by amplifying marginalized voices.
Keith and Li-Ching emphasize that social and civic education should help students deliberate social policies to enhance justice and harmony, not just focus on interpersonal relations. They provide case studies in their book, such as how Singapore's public housing policies deliberately foster everyday interactions between diverse groups.
When asked about challenges as an Asian researcher, Li-Ching advises framing one's work in terms of larger problems that are relevant across contexts, rather than just focusing on a specific country. Keith adds that non-Western perspectives should be seen as valuable contributions to global educational discourse.
Regarding the role of social justice and citizenship education amidst current global challenges, Keith and Li-Ching argue that the pandemic has highlighted the centrality of social relationships. They are also exploring how to cultivate pragmatic and transformative hope in students by studying examples of people successfully bringing about positive change. In their own teacher education work, they aim to empower pre-service teachers to be curriculum gatekeepers who enact their professional beliefs despite constraints. Ultimately, Keith and Li-Ching believe educators worldwide can unite around the goal of improving the wellbeing of people and the planet.
This episode is hosted by Stella Micheong Cheong, Adam Peter Lang and Kamille Beye. Please subscribe to the podcast through Apple, Google, Spotify, or Amazon Music. You may also follow @c4c_ed on Twitter. We look forward to hearing your feedback. If you would like to explore participating in our podcast and submit your blog post to the C4C, do not hesitate to reach out through the online participation form or email us at conversations4citizenship@gmail.com
Further Reading List
Stella Micheong Cheong 00:04
Hello, listeners and welcome to the #conversations4citizenship podcast. I'm your host, Stella Micheong Cheong. Today, we aim to offer a thought-provoking discussion on the intersection between social justice education and citizenship education, providing insight for educators, scholars, and anyone interested in the future of citizenship education. I'm excited to be joined by two distinguished guests today, Professor Keith Barton, and Professor Li-Ching Ho. Hi, Dr. Keith and Dr. Li-Ching. How are you doing?
Li-Ching Ho 00:46
Good. I'm doing great. Thank you.
Stella Micheong Cheong 00:49
Oh, yeah. Wonderful. Thank you for joining us, with a focus on exploring the diverse viewpoints of the Global North and South. So we are we can't wait to see how your research unfold and shape the season 3. (Great). Good. So yeah, as well as your insightful new book, called 'curriculum for justice and harmony, deliberation, knowledge, and action in social and civic education.'Before we dive deep, could you share a bit about your background? And what led you to your work in social justice and/or citizenship education?
Keith Barton 01:44
Well, Li-Ching?
Li-Ching Ho 01:45
All right, I was just wondering who was going to start. So, I'll start. My name is Li-Ching Ho. I'm a Professor of Social Studies Education at the University of Wisconsin Madison. Prior to joining the University of Wisconsin, I was also a professor in Singapore, but I was also a secondary or high school, social studies and geography teacher in Singapore. So my work has been centred in the region of Southeast Asia. I'm particularly interested in investigating how ideas and concepts such as meritocracy, and more recently, harmony have had an impact on civic education in different parts of the world, especially in East and Southeast Asia. I am more recent research interested also include environmental civic education or citizenship education, specifically climate change education. I can talk a little bit more about my more recent interest, but I'll let Keith introduce himself.
Keith Barton 02:59
Alright, so I'm Keith Barton at Indiana University. Like Li-Ching I used to be a teacher, I was an elementary teacher, actually. But for many, many years now, I've been preparing both elementary and secondary teachers to teach what in the United States is called Social Studies. My research, my early research for quite some time was on children's understanding of history, both elementary and secondary students understanding of history. And a lot of that research was conducted in Northern Ireland. I've also done research on children's understanding of human rights in Northern Ireland, Ireland, Colombia, and the US. And, you know, like Li-Ching, I've worked in a lot of different contexts. So I've worked in Singapore, and New Zealand, South Sudan, Chile, and a few other places. So we're both pretty International. But I also want to emphasise that, for both of us, one of the key things is that our day job is preparing teachers. So we are both people who are as part of our regular everyday work, are preparing teachers and what in the United States is called social studies, including history and geography and citizenship and so on.
Stella Micheong Cheong 04:22
Yeah, thank you, thank you, Keith and Li-Ching. So when I saw you use the terms, social and civic education in your book, and I was interested in why you choose to treat them as a single concept, instead of dividing into each one individually social education or social studies and citizenship education.
Keith Barton 04:52
Well, you know, and this gets back to what a lot of people have noted as a big difference between the way in which these subjects are taught in the UK and former UK colonies compared to North America. In North America, we have this umbrella term social studies. And it includes history and geography, and civic education, also economics, sociology, psychology, and so on. And it's really just a basic premise of the field here that all of these subjects are part of civic education. It's not like a history teacher does not consider themselves to also be engaged in civic education, it's more a matter of emphasis. And it's also important to know that in the United States, and not only in the United States, but some other countries as well. Somebody who teaches history is also they may teach history at nine o'clock, and at 10 o'clock, teach civics and an 11 o'clock, teach economics and then back to another history section. So we typically prepare people to teach both subjects specific topics and citizenship more generally. And then an elementary school, that's certainly the case, it's much more integrated there. So it was not really it's not like we sat down and thought, oh, shall we combine these or not? It's really we hadn't thought about separating them, would you say that's truly Li-Ching?
Li-Ching Ho 06:29
Yes, And also, as we were considering the audience for our book, we really intentionally wanted to speak to teachers across national boundaries. And therefore, we deliberately tried to come up with a term that could incorporate all the various permutations of subjects that are associated with both social and citizenship education, more broadly conceptualised in different countries. So it was an attempt to be inclusive, in terms of like addressing that particular audience. And as Keith said, we use it as an umbrella concept. I mean, in the like, you know, similar umbrella concepts will be as Keith pointed out, in it will be social studies education in the US. But in Singapore, an umbrella concept would be humanities education, which will incorporate what history geography as well as the citizenship subject called social studies. So again, you know, just these two examples show that, you know, there's such diversity in terms of terminology used. And we wanted to speak to teachers who taught all these related subjects.
Stella Micheong Cheong 07:43
Thank you for making clear. Yeah. My second question is about the term, justice, and harmony that you use in your book. I'm really interested in why you use this term. What are the central principles of justice and harmony? And how can they be applied to citizenship education in diverse global context?
Keith Barton 08:12
So it may take us about three hours to answer this question. But we'll try to be concise. Of course, justice, in a way is an easy call, because everybody in education is interested in justice in one way or another. So from the very beginning of this project, we knew that we were going to focus on justice. And certainly in the United States, nearly anyone who writes about social and civic education more broadly, is going to pay some attention to justice. But we were also a bit dissatisfied with what that means in practice, and how sometimes justice or social justice can just mean agreeing with whatever I want to do. And so it's like, it's oftentimes assumed what is education for justice without really narrowing it down. And so as we start developing the book, we became particularly interested in the work of Amartya Sen and Martha Nussbaum on capabilities approach to justice. And we found that to be a particularly useful approach to justice for a few different reasons. So the core idea there is that justice means providing people with the opportunities that they need to lead the lives that they choose, whether it's basic necessities, education, health care, or political participation. So it focuses we think, on record are the most important issues. So that's one advantage of it. But another advantage of this capabilities approach particularly in incensed discussion of justice is that it's a comparative approach. And by that send means it's not a matter of trying to find a perfectly just society, because people are never going to agree on that. But rather, it's a matter of trying to figure out how to make the world more just or less unjust. And Sen argues, and I think he's probably right, that it's easier for people to agree on how to make life better for people than how to make a perfect world. So if we look at people who don't have enough education, or health care, or housing security, people can usually come together to agree on how to make that better, even if they can agree on how to get rid of this issue altogether. And so that's why we think it's a particularly useful approach for schools because students can deliberate how to make things better for other people without having to engage in very philosophical discussions about what's the perfect world. But at the same time, we, early on made it clear to me that justice by itself, was really not enough for a global perspective that discussions of justice can leave people call in some parts of the world. So I'm going to let Dr. Ho talk about the rest of this.
Li-Ching Ho 11:23
Thanks, Keith. Yes, so early on, in my work, I joined on my research on citizenship education in Singapore, as well as in other parts of specifically East Asia, I noticed that another educational aim seems particularly prominent, and that was the concept of harmony. As I thought about it even more, I realised that there was something missing in the general citizenship education discourse that we have, especially in North America with its central focus on justice. Yes, Justice is really important. But the question that I have is what's next, right? And for that, keep an eye turn to one of our wonderful colleagues from the University of Washington, Professor Walter Parker. And in one of his early books, he wrote that the central education question of all time, in part is how do we prepare young people to live together justly in a diverse world? So as Keith talked about, we've paid a lot of attention, especially in North America and in Europe, specifically on the concept of justice. But how do we prepare young people to learn to live together and isn't living together? dimensioned is about harmony. And harmony, as we've discussed in our book is all about relationships. But yet, in our book, we also recognise some of the challenges in terms of using the concept of harmony in part because it has frequently been misused and misrepresented in many different countries. So some people harmony will equate to conformity or uniformity. And we recognise that's how it has been implemented in some contexts, so he has a bad rap. So instead, we offer a slightly modified alternative, and it's called we call it critical harmony. And there are different elements. So critical harmony. So the first element of critical harmony with its focus on relationships is that it values difference and diversity, even in radical forms, so as to achieve a more integrated goal. So that's the first dimension of what we call critical harmony. An easy way to conceptualise it will be to think about how an orchestra is formed. So in orchestra, you don't just have just one instrument and with all the members of the orchestra playing that one same note that is not harmony. but you know, this, an orchestra consists of stringed instruments, woodwind instruments, brass, percussion. And they all take turns to be at the forefront, to play different notes at different points in time to take the lead to take the back seat, and that is the understanding of harmony that we are offering. The second dimension of critical harmony is that, it actually embraces conflict and tension as a means for social progress. So critical harmony is not the avoidance of conflict is not the suppression of dissent, but instead embraces this dissent and conflict in order to continue with the process of harmonisation. The third important element of critical harmony is this idea of balance. So critical harmony works against power imbalances by seeking various perspectives and different forms of expertise. So in other words, the concept of critical harmony recognises that not only do you need to have a diversity of voices, but those voices must be imbalanced. In other words, at different points in time, you want to hear from people who perhaps have unique domain knowledge and have a unique personal experiences, amplifying the voices of those who have little access to power in terms of addressing problems, such as the opioid crisis in the US. So critical harmony is about balance and redressing power imbalances. just in summary, the concept of harmony is about focusing on social relationships. And specifically in our concept of critical harmony. We focus on emphasising difference and diversity, emphasising the importance of conflict extension. And also thinking about the concept of balance.
Keith Barton 16:12
Also I wanted to add to that, that it took a while for or Li-Ching to convince me of the importance of harmony, because it's something that she takes for granted as being an important part of the social world. But it's a tougher sell, I think too many people in the West, it's not me to the extent that we use the word harmony, oftentimes, it's in a very shallow way, or even a very, you know, critical way, as she's alluded to it because it's a concept that's been misused. But early on, we drew from the work of Chenyang Li, who's Chinese scholar working in Singapore, who's written about the relevance of the concept of harmony in modern liberal societies, and also Sung Moon Kim, a political philosopher from Korea, but who works now in Hong Kong, we do quite a bit from their work on how we can apply some of these traditional, particularly Confucian values to modern liberal democracies. So we've really tried to develop something that has relevance across kind of cultural and social context.
Stella Micheong Cheong 17:26
Wow. Fascinating. Thank you. Thank you so much for sharing the pulpal. The concept, I love the critical harmony, but personally, as an Asian, and Korean, as Asian, and the Korean, I am familiar with a Confucianism, or Confucian values as well. So harmony is more like. You know. For me. it's familiarise with this concept. But presumably, there is a gap between the Global North and South perspective, as you, Dr. Keith has already mentioned slightly. So I wonder your interpretation of justice and harmony or critical harmony, might deeper depend on geopolitical or geographical context? If so, could you elaborate on that? Why are those different?
Keith Barton 18:29
Well, I mean, it absolutely does. And so on the one hand, we try to base the work on two ideas that we thought did have universal appeal. But the specific application certainly varies by context. And when it comes to the justice part of that a big part of Sen’s theory of justice is that you can't sit down ahead of time and say, here are the principles of justice that apply to everyone, but rather, people in given settings, whether a local setting or a national setting, have to deliberate what's the best way of achieving those in this particular place? So probably everybody in the world agrees that people should have adequate nutrition. What's the best way of doing that? Well, that's going to depend a lot on local circumstances, cultural values, social relations. So it's up to people in different settings to decide how to achieve that or how to move toward that in their own circumstances. So we really did try to do that in a way that we thought would have relevance to different places. And throughout the book, we use lots of case studies, from different places around the world. I think probably every continent has at least a couple of case studies in the books about how these ideas could be applied. So that's the justice side but again, I'll let Li-Ching talk about the harmony side of this issue.
Li-Ching Ho 19:56
It does sound a bit like you know, the book is divided into Like no, Keith rights and justice part, right, the comedy part, Bobby actually co-authored both bits together. He was just as immersed in Confucian philosophy as I was. And you know, likewise, I was just immersed in a Martinson's work. And he was. So you're very right in the sense that there are divergent interpretations of harmony. But as Keith mentioned, we try to provide principles in the book, but not we try to be avoid being overly prescriptive. Right. But while recognising that, you know, these concepts of justice and harmony have relevance to as far as we know, all societies. So if you follow that, if you want, the concept of harmony down to its fundamental elements, is basically means centering or focusing on relationships. And it's very hard to argue that we do not need to think about building relationships within any society, right? Not only among people, but also with other non-sentient beings or the environment. To us. The concept of harmony reminds all of us, educators, that we must help students think about questions such as, how can bonds among groups or individuals be strengthened? Right, so that all people's lives are richer? And more fulfilling? Right? How can we help students explore different kinds of productive connections interactions, to establish and maintain ties or relationships among different groups and individuals. How can we help students think about what are their obligations to others, for example. So that, to me, is one of the important elements that have harmony that even though it might look and be enacted differently in different contexts, it generally that seems to be one of the fundamental goals of education in many different societies. So again, we're not telling teachers that you have to do this, right? How it's manifested in the individual classroom, in a school context, or in a country might look different. The case studies of a new book might be different. But still centering the idea of relationships, which I think in many parts of the world has been something that has, that people have paid less attention to, especially in formal education.
Stella Micheong Cheong 22:44
100%agree and well, these golden rules know that justice and harmony. Well, we always learned we should do ,we should make a better word, and we should harmonise with other people. But it's theory. So I just wonder, what role is citizenship education should play out in order to apply those golden rules to our daily lives?
Keith Barton 23:16
I mean, that's an interesting question. And, you know, part of the answer is that or arguing for is that these are the questions, students should be deliberating questions of justice in harmony, rather than here's a set of prescriptions. But also, it's really important to keep in mind, we're not talking about interpersonal behaviour. And that's a very common misunderstanding, I think of how these ideas might apply. It's not about how to treat other individual people, but rather, how to make decisions about the social policies that will enhance justice and harmony. Not that there's anything wrong with focusing on interpersonal relations, it's really incredibly important. We have many colleagues who do that, that's just not the focus of our work. Our focus is on helping students deliberate social policy. So just as an example, that Audrey Osler in human rights education has used before, it's the difference between teaching students not to bully each other and teaching students how schools can develop rules to stop bullying, and how to access those accountability systems. So we're much more interested in the second what are the what are the social policies and practices? Now, what are the individual interpersonal relations that are involved? Again, not that there's anything wrong with that? It's just that's not our specialty
Stella Micheong Cheong 24:46
Li-Ching, would you like to add?
Li-Ching Ho 24:48
Um, yeah. So I am glad that you focus on you know, the question of what can it look like in the classroom, right, How can teachers enact such principles such as what might appear to be very lofty aims educational aims in a classroom setting. So in the book, we provide a fair number of real world case studies that illustrate how these ideas can be introduced in the curriculum. So say for example, we in the book, we talked about the problem of providing public housing in many different contexts. And that is actually a good way of illustrating how one can draw on both the principles of justice and harmony in terms of thinking about policies with regard to public housing. So in many cases, in many situations, when people think about public housing, they're focusing immediately goes to problems with justice, right? How do we provide safe, secure, accessible, affordable housing? It's a very important question of justice. But it is also a question of harmony, because the problem with many public examples of public housing in Europe, in North America especially is that these questions of harmony do not come into play. So as unlike, for example, Singapore, so public housing in Singapore, really centers a concept of harmony, when you think about public housing policy. So for example, when public housing policies developed, there are a deliberate goal of ensuring that there is a representative ethnic mix of people living in a housing estate, but also socio economic mix as well. So there have been policies that have been put in place to avoid the formation of ethnic enclaves. And also to avoid the problem faced by many public housing estates, where you have a high concentration of less economically privileged people living in an environment. And you also have a great divide in terms of bit of thinking about how people have chosen to stay in different areas. So that case of public housing clearly shows that it's really important to consider both justice and harmony, when we are thinking about addressing such questions. Keith, you want to add to that?
Keith Barton 27:43
you know, I think it is a really great example, because in so many countries, public housing, no matter how well provide, it tends to increase division. And Singapore is certainly a great example of how public housing policy is used to bring people together. You know, having been to Singapore many times myself, I see that just the way on a daily basis, people must rub shoulders, with people from different economic backgrounds, different religions, different ethnicities, all the time. And that's due to public policy that simply does not allow division.
Li-Ching Ho 28:25
Yes, in fact, a sociologist once described the planning of public housing as is in Singapore as deliberately including spaces of everyday conviviality, and that's where you have people rubbing shoulders with diverse others on a day to day basis. And that is about harmony.
Stella Micheong Cheong 28:49
Thank you for your brilliant response, Dr. Keith and Li-Ching. And as I told you in the beginning, my research areas focus more on refugee and migrant youths. And when it comes to justice and harmony is big deal for those minority groups. Well, in theory, social justice, education sounds like a giant empathy booster. And teaching students to listen to those who are open on her fight the good fight against unfairness and build community where everyone feels like they belong. But in reality, schools feel pretty one-side when it comes to voices like refugees, migrants, and people from different backgrounds. So how can we use social justice education or the concept of justice and harmony you developed to burst that bubble and help students embracing all kinds of voices?
Keith Barton 30:04
So when you say that schools feel pretty one sided, you mean.. they tend to ignore the voices of others? Is that it?
Stella Micheong Cheong 30:13
Yes, exactly. Maybe it’s different from different contexts? But at least in the UK, to Korea? Yeah. Yeah, I feel that.
Keith Barton 30:25
Yeah, I mean, I think in some ways, that's, I mean, that's obviously an important part of our work is that we're trying to emphasise that we must pay attention to the voices of all people. And I think that oftentimes, what happens in education is that it's not so much that we don't care about others, but that we don't bother to listen. And, you know, I guess one of the things we're saying is, that's just gonna go wrong. I mean, no matter what good intentions you have, if you're not actually listening to other people's explanations of their lives and their goals, it's gonna go wrong. And in fact, so, you know, because I have a long background in history education. Sometimes people ask me, okay, well, what's the relevance of this book, to history education. And we actually don't mention history very much in the book. But one of the ways in which history is relevant is it shows what can go wrong, when good intentions are imposed on other people without their involvement. I mean, let's just look at the whole history of colonialism. Of course, there were there many motivations for colonialism, but one of the ones that sometimes expressed whether it's, whether it's, you know, British colonialism, or Japanese colonialism is an attempt to civilise other people. But of course, other people don't necessarily sit around thinking I want to be civilised, because they already are civilised, but they have different ways of looking at the world. So I think that, you know, history education can help us see what can go wrong, when you don't listen to the people who are affected by the decisions that you make.
Stella Micheong Cheong 32:13
And Li-Ching (do you want to add)?
Li-Ching Ho 32:14
to build on what Keith said. So remember, I was talking about the importance of balance, right. And when we think about harmony and the balance of hearing the different voices. But in our book, we emphasise, in fact, you spend an entire chapter talking about one curriculum principle, and that we feel that teachers should pay attention to and that is listening to distant voices. And the idea behind that is that, as he said, We cannot presume to know, what people are thinking what people are feeling. So for example, we cannot presume to know, some of the challenges that refugees face, we cannot presume to know what the housing insecure might feel. Right. And so therefore, we need to bring those voices to the table. Both for informational purposes, but also in terms of having a check on some of our understandings. And perhaps some misunderstandings, so this idea of listening to distant voices and bring those voices to the table within the classroom is central in our opinion.
Keith Barton 33:30
And it's so much easier now than it would have been 25 years ago. So in a time when schools had limited educational resources, produce mainly by governments or other elites. It was more difficult to do that. But now if you want to know what small farmers in West Africa, think about trade policy, well, it takes you two minutes of googling to find some sources on that. So it's just so much easier now to include diverse voices than it once was.
Stella Micheong Cheong 34:03
Thank you. And my last question is about my personal challenges and struggles. So, being an Asian researcher in this research world, that's still heavily Eurocentric, I'm constantly doing the North and South perspective shuffle. But yeah, some words are just brick words. So how did you pull up this whole balancing out? And if you could give one golden nugget to an early career researcher like me, jumping into the global research mashup. What would it be?
Li-Ching Ho 34:50
That's an interesting question! I was absolutely fascinated when I saw this question on your list. But you know, maybe, I mean, I hesitate to, you know, give, collect general prescriptions because you know, context matters, right and every single thing that you do. Oh, curiosity, what are some of the barriers that you you've encountered as an Asian researcher?
Stella Micheong Cheong 35:16
Yeah, let me tell you briefly in my doctoral research, because as I told you, my research focus on the Korean context, and the Korean division system, that this division system is not simply that the national or geographical division, but also is identity division between the North and South. And then I really tried to draw on the Korean researcher Korean scholar’s theory of division. I don't know you heard about that. Professor Nak-cheong back. But he's very famous scholar in Korea and also the US, America. And I tried to integrate this theory of division and based on the Korean perspective, and also the Cold War and ideology theory in the Europe or the cosmopolitanism. But most of the theories, it comes from the Europe. So it's really hard to keep a balance the between the Korean perspective or that the division very specific division context, and also the universal theory such as cosmopolitanism.
Li-Ching Ho 36:47
Is that so? I think that's something that all of us struggle with, at least certainly I struggle in terms of thinking about my work, and its potential relevance to an audience that being avoid, may not even know where Singapore is. So my early work was based on Singapore, right? So I collected data in Singapore, I worked with teachers and students in Singapore. And it's like, you know, why would anybody care about Singapore? So that was an immediate question that I faced, probably about 15 years ago. And at that time gave me this piece of advice. And it's something that I shared with many of my international doctoral students, as well as early career colleagues, is not to think about. Let's see the place that you're working in. So for us, Korea, for me what it was Singapore, right not to centre that. But to think of it as a case of a larger problem that applies to different contexts. For example, I use the case of Singapore, to illustrate either ideas that perhaps my colleagues in working in the in North America and other Western contexts may not have paid attention to. So that's an example of harmony, right? And offering a way for them to think about this concept, or this idea that emerge from the case of, my of Singapore in different ways, I've also used my work in Singapore to challenge existing ideas that people perhaps might have taken for granted. So it's not about Singapore. But it's about this larger problem that all of us, as scholars around the world are grappling with. So Singapore is just a case to illustrate that larger problem to shed light, and in certain ways to perhaps even challenge some of the very taken for granted assumptions that are found in scholarly discourse.
Keith Barton 39:06
Not a parallel example of that we have a colleague, Lisa who's done research on Taiwanese teachers understanding of cultural diversity and how they deal with cultural diversity in their classrooms. And what she found was that they don't do it the way Western multicultural scholars suggest. And so what she's done now, is shown the value of these local perspectives on how to work with diverse students. So in a sense, just like Li-Ching says, she kind of owned the concept of harmony and looked at what can this contribute to a larger discourse. Same with Lisa, she's kind of owned this idea, this local idea of working with diversity, instead of seeing as a deficit view of local teachers compared to the western perspective. So I think one of the things that's important is you is not to assume that, that Westerners the most developed ways of looking at education. And now we have to measure how far apart other people are from them, but to really own those ideas from other places. Wow,
Stella Micheong Cheong 40:13
Wow, thank you so much, Dr. Keith, everything is really useful and powerful. And I'm really impressed by your insight and thought on the justice and harmony. And now I'm going to hand over my colleague, they might have a lot of questions. And Adam and Kamille, Adam, you want ask first?
Adam Peter Lang 40:34
Well, thank you very much, both of you. I thought that was fascinating. And also, if I may say, it's a very good double act, because you were adding to what you were saying, and I thought that was very interesting, particularly thing with harmony and reflecting on the years that I was a history teacher in London schools, it's interesting to even just today just reflect in a slightly different way. One of the reasons we came about conversations for citizenship as a podcast, we were born in the pandemic. And one of the questions we always ask our guests is, what influences Do you think that has had upon the way in which we should approach citizenship or not? And maybe much of your research was before the pandemic, and but there seems to be a sense in some quarters that everybody sort of thinks it's finished now and just go back to normal. Whereas things are markedly different. I mean, I was doing something the other day about attendance rates at schools in the UK, which have twice as bad as they were before the pandemic, so, but just wondered whether you thought, with the rise of populism, the sort of Age of anger that we kind of are going through the geopolitical dynamics, whether that has any bearing? Or is that just something that we will ride through in terms of looking at your concept of citizenship, and particularly, harmony? I don't know whether you have any thoughts on that?
Keith Barton 42:05
If we ride through it, it's going to be a difficult ride. I think, you know, I think that I certainly anticipate dark days ahead in many countries, many Western countries, I really don't know what's going to happen in the United States with the presidential elections, or what the outcome of that is going to be. But it's not like we think that, you know, our approach is some kind of panacea that's going to solve these problems. But it does seem that in highly polarised settings, a lot of people look at it and say, Oh, maybe these are the kinds of things we should be paying more attention to just the mention of the word harmony for many educators causes them to at least listen and pay attention. So I you know, I think that throughout the world where we're looking for something different. Now, there, as you suggest, we cannot assume that we're just going to go on doing things the way that we've always done them, because we just look around us, whether in schools or outside of schools, and the world is changing, and not mainly for the better right now. I don't think
Li-Ching Ho 43:15
I think one of the issues raised by the pandemic, and might have, and I can see it as also a possible affordance is that it has forced people to re-evaluate the role of social relationships, and centrality in our lives. Until we have enough until one is supposed to stay at home day in day out, and not have the opportunity to engage with others in meaningful ways. You know, we didn't realise what these are. For me. I didn't realise what I missed. Right. So that centrality of social relationships is perhaps something that is at the forefront of many people's thoughts right now. And to me, I think that's really important when thinking about harmony. Right. The other idea that that we'll be working on that both Keith and I have been working on is also tied to some of the consequences and implications of the pandemic on education is, it's this idea of hope. And we've been working on it. We just gave a talk about that, about this concept of Hope keepers also talking about talks about who in the history education, but we really want to emphasise the importance of teachers, framing issues, not necessarily in what they've done in the past where, you know, there has been somewhat unfortunate in the sense of, let's say, that's thinking about climate change education is all being doom and gloom and despair, and stuff like that. And we know that that you know, might motivate some students to take action, but we also know from research that it might result in a very real sense of despair. This notion of climate despair is something that has been studied. So thinking about the role of hope, and particularly different kinds of hope, within education is really important. Keith, do you want to talk about sound hope and transformative hope?
Keith Barton 45:26
So, yeah, I mean, we've been exploring this whole idea of hope and thinking about what Okay, what does that really mean? It's not, it can't just be some kind of, you know, touchy feely idea that everything will be better. So instead and Li-Ching introduce me to quite a few scholars working on these ideas, but we've settled on the idea of both helping students develop sort of a transformative or almost utopian ideas of hope that is, what our, you know, goals worth working toward, even if in the short run, they may seem very far off. But at the same time, balancing that with more pragmatic ideas of hope that is looking at actual successes that people had in different contexts to that, that do improve their lives and the lives of others. So you know, so much of our work is really about the knowledge component of the curriculum. So even though we focused a lot on kind of like dispositions or values, we believe that those are things you get to through engaging with knowledge. And so we think that if we engage with engaged students with knowledge of times that people have successfully brought about a better world. That's a way of improving their kind of pragmatic ideas about helping the present.
Adam Peter Lang 46:51
I think it's very interesting what you say affirm, just for outside listeners, if you listen to our previous seasons, a number of our scholars refer to this and I do remember one, using I think it was the phrase Hope dies last. I have some other questions, but I'm gonna pass over to Kamille, thank you so very much.
Kamille Beye 47:11
Thank you guys, for such a wonderful presentation. I was, I was getting excited, because also, I am also a former social studies teacher in the US in Africa, trained in the US. And so I was thinking about the idea of political harmony and the different things that it means, of course, the differences in diversity, embracing conflict intention, and what this idea of balanced looks like. And so I have two questions about that first, and the first one is, I'm from the Midwest, I'm from Iowa. And then I think there's there in the Midwest. So the demographics of who's coming to the schools, as teachers versus where they teach is quite different. I'm thinking of like urban areas, or even for our rural communities, or even a newly formed immigrant communities. And so I'm asking what I want to ask you basically, is, how do you get your students as future teachers to combine in to the ideas of critical harmony, especially in the US right now we have this, this large division and this idea of alternative facts and not ignore not real, not recognising the trueness of our history. So I'm going to know how you guys combine into that. And then the second part of that is this idea about making social policies that we can put into practice as far as educators, I'm also thinking of the US with our school board system. And now this heavy involvement of parents into the practitioner space, I want to know how do you either circumvent that, or try to embrace them to give them the knowledge so that they see what you're doing? And what teachers are doing generally is a good thing?
Keith Barton 48:57
Well, I'll start with the easy one, and then Li-Ching can do the hard one. Here. I mean, it's not necessarily an easy task. But it to me so far that my easy answer to the question of how to incorporate this into teacher education, because I, you know, I've struggled that we wrote this, this long and complex book. And it's not mainly for the elementary level, although it has plenty of implications for elementary level, but on a day to day basis, that's what I'm doing. I'm preparing elementary teachers. So how to take those concepts into it, but that we begin the book with a quote from Reverend Martin Luther King Jr, who said that life's most urgent and persistent question is what are you doing for others? And, I mean, that's really a question that encapsulates both justice and harmony. Because you have to care about other people in your relationship with them to even think about this question, but what you are doing for others improves justice. And so with my elementary teachers, I really try to centre my courses around that idea. And that's, it's hard for anybody to resist that idea. I mean, who can say no, I don't want to do things for others. So that's an entry way. And then from that we explore what are all the different ways that you can do things for others? What are the circumstances that lead people to need things from others, like, oppression, or poverty or whatever! So, you know, I start with what seems like a gentle entry point. But that can lead to some very fundamental questions. And so far, I don't, my students don't hate it (Laugh). So it's good so far, and Li-Ching can talk about how we fix school boards.
Li-Ching Ho 50:56
Yeah, I leave it to be to do all the heavy lifting. Yeah. So I work with secondary school teachers, I worked in secondary teachers in Singapore, as well as in the US. And then these are two very different education systems. Singapore has a very centralised education system with high stakes examinations, prescribed textbooks and things like that. Whereas in contrast, US teachers just face different affordances and constraints. But one thing that I really emphasise in my 15-year career as a teacher and educator, is this idea of the teacher as a curriculum instructional gatekeeper, and that's from Stephen Thornton. And it is this central idea of the teacher as a gatekeeper that I think is really important, because there are constraints or limitations, different kinds of constraints and limitations found in different educational systems. But yet, if teachers believe that they have the agency to be gatekeepers, in other words, they are the ones that make these curricular pedagogical decisions in their classroom, have yet with certain constraints. But hopefully, in pragmatic, but an innovative way they have the opportunity to shape students’ lives, they have the opportunity to make a difference and to adhere to what they really believe in. So I have teachers in Singapore, for example, who complain that you know, I'm so disempowered, I just have to follow the curriculum. I, there are all these political pressures and might get into trouble. Does that sound familiar to any US teacher? Yes. But it's just different kinds of travel different kinds of challenges and constraints. So in my work , in my methods, classes, that means in other words, the classes were pre-service teachers, one of the things that I do is not only to emphasise that they have the agency as curriculum instructional gatekeepers, but also to demonstrate how they might enact the agency in the classroom. So yes, for example, you there are certain concepts and ideas that you have homes that you cannot use in the classroom, but what can you do to work towards your professional goals in a pragmatic way, but yet, it does not do a disservice to your students. And that, that creative, problem solving is something that I helped my feet my student teachers work towards.
Kamille Beye 53:39
Thank you, I think that it will be very interesting to see how this idea of critical harmony worked in places like Florida, where you might have, (um) trans children in the classroom, obviously, black children in the classroom, in this denial of history, and maybe even their right to existence. So that's really interesting. And then my last question comes, like if we're talking about this in an international space, we've talked a lot about how this can be used in America and of course, in Asia, but I'm thinking about Africa. And obviously, that's my focus area. And there are places that are teaching civics education as a standalone class, but I'm thinking about Liberia, particularly since that has a direct tie to the US as well. What advice would you give to lecturers there, about how to teach an idea of justice and harmony, when there's still divisions, legacy divisions that permeate every area of society?
Keith Barton 54:44
Certainly not easy. And, you know, some of my work has been in South Sudan. And that is, you know, so far, I mean, the situation there is so far from, you know, any kind of in mediate resolution, that it's not like there's a magic way of doing this. But I think what we can do as educators in even the most difficult circumstance is to keep these questions on the table. So how could we live in harmony with other people? What policies would promote that? That's a question that we should always be asking. Even if the solution to it is still a very, very long way off. (Thank you).
Li-Ching Ho 55:33
Oh, um, I, again, you know, I, I think it's really hard to provide specific responses without necessarily understanding the context within which educators are operating. But Keith's point is really valid in the sense that, you know, keeping these important questions about and focusing on the larger goal of improving the well-being of others in society and also the environment, let's not ignore the environment as well is something that I think almost all educators can get behind. Right? So how do we improve the well-being of others, we could be well-being in terms of, you know, health, in terms of education, in terms of economic prosperity. It could be in different kinds of social cultural well-being as well. But having that flexibility in terms of thinking about these questions in different ways, under different circumstances.
Kamille Beye 56:50
Thank you. I wanted to ask, are there more questions before I close out the episode? Okay, so professor Barton, and professor Ho first of all, I want to thank you so much for your time. And I thought it was so great, Professor Barton, that you talked about Martin Luther King today, considering we're celebrating his holiday in the US. And I just think it's wonderful that this idea of doing for others is the centre point of justice, because if we think about other people have been make our moves in society, I think that maybe we'll move a little differently, or it will help us move differently. And I like the idea of this idea of hope and education, and the way that you're teaching your students to look at transformative goals, but also this idea of keeping balance and looking for the success and the president. And I think that these are things that resonate with everyone, whether it's in our direct classes or just our daily lives, and I think it's important to always be hopeful. So I want to say thank you guys again, I'm closing the episode. My name is Kamille. Thank you for listening to conversations4citizenship. We hope you enjoyed this episode. Be sure to subscribe to conversations4citizenship and look for us on Twitter @ c4c_ed. A transcript of today's conversation with Dr. Keith and Dr. Li-Ching, so it can be found at www. conversations4citizenship.com. This episode of conversations4citizenship was produced by me, Kamille Beye, Adam Lang and Stella Cheong, recorded and mixed by Stella Cheong. Thank you!