In this episode of Conversations4Citizenship, two students, Jayden Carmona and Subham Barua from UC Riverside discuss the pro-Palestinian protests on US college campuses. They explore the motivations behind the protests, the role of social media in shaping narratives, and the potential impact on the upcoming presidential election. Both students emphasize the importance of aligning academic work with the real issues faced by those affected by the conflict and highlight the need for increased political engagement among young people. The episode concludes with a call to action for students to vote and use their academic platforms to advocate for meaningful change.
The episode of the Conversations4Citizenship podcast features an in-depth discussion with Jayden Carmona and Subham Barua, two students from UC Riverside in the US, about the pro-Palestinian protests sweeping US college campuses.
Jayden and Subham provide their perspectives on the resurgence of campus activism, attributing it to recent social justice movements and the immediate impact of the October 7 attack and subsequent war on Gaza. The students also discussed the differences in protest dynamics between East and West Coast campuses and the potential impact of these movements on voter turnout in the upcoming election. They emphasized the importance of civic engagement and voting, regardless of political affiliation.
Both guests emphasized the role of social media in shaping narratives and organizing protests. Subham highlighted how social media, combined with generative AI, can affect perceptions of the conflict, especially among less tech-savvy populations. The discussion also touches on the role of social media in spreading both accurate and misleading information, with Subham noting how algorithms can amplify certain narratives, whether true or false. Jayden adds that while social media can bring attention to important issues, it also has the potential to spread extremist views.
The discussion touched on concerns about antisemitism arising from these protests. While acknowledging some instances of antisemitic rhetoric, both students believed this was not representative of the majority of protesters and doubted it would significantly impact the upcoming US elections.Subham expresses concern that Republicans might weaponize the unrest to paint Democrats as radical, while Jayden is skeptical about the overall influence of foreign policy issues on American voters. Both agree that increased political engagement among students is a positive outcome, regardless of the immediate electoral impact.
The episode concludes with reflections on the importance of voting and civic engagement. Jayden shares his journey into politics, motivated by the election of Donald Trump and his Cuban heritage. Subham underscores the need for students to use their academic work to give voice to those affected by conflicts, urging them to write about meaningful issues.
Stella Micheong Cheong 00:04
Hello listeners. Welcome to Conversations4citizenship podcast. I'm your host, Stella Micheong Cheong. Today we are discussing the pro-Palestinian protest sweeping US college campuses in response to ongoing slightly Palestinian conflict and humanitarian crisis in Gaza. Joining us are two students with firsthand perspectives, Subham Barua and Jayden Carmona from UC Riverside, who have strong opinions on this issue, our discussion will cover the motivation behind these protests, the demands being made, and the broader implications of the Israeli attacks on Palestine, the ongoing war between Hamas and militant Islamist groups, and the severe humanitarian crisis in Gaza. Additionally, we will explore how these campus movements are influencing political discourse in the U.S., particularly in the context of the upcoming presidential election, and what this means for citizenship and human rights education. In this complex context, we believe it's crucial we engage with the perspectives of students grappling with these controversial issues. Hi Subham and Jayden, how are you doing?
Subham Barua 01:44
Yeah, we're doing very good. Thank you so much for having us. It's a pleasure to be here and maybe provide some much needed perspectives into what's really going on campuses.
Jayden Carmona 01:59
Yeah, I'm really happy to be here. It was super interesting. I have kind of a diverse opinion, because I've been on both the Yonsei campus and in South Korea and the UC Riverside campus in California, both of which I think had pretty different student populations, levels of interest in the conflict, and both of which were pretty different, I think, on the issue. So I think it's interesting,
Stella Micheong Cheong 02:27
Brilliant. Thanks for joining us. We can't wait to speak with you both. Let's get started. Can you introduce yourselves and why you are interested in this ongoing Israeli Palestinian conflict,
Jayden Carmona 02:44
Sure. My name is Jaden Carmona. I'm a fourth-year student at UC Riverside. Just completed a semester of study abroad at Yonsei. I'm planning to get a master's degree in international politics and probably going to work for the for the US State Department in some capacity. I'm interested in this topic specifically because I think it's very fascinating issue, because it's controversial to what extent. I think this is the first topic I've really seen where both sides have a truly comprehensive view of reality, that both use facts they do legitimately to have a view of reality, and both completely disagree with each other. And so when I was first looking into this topic, I thought it was interesting because, you know, globally, there was a lot of consensus around you, so stuffers like Ukrainian war, which I'm also very interested in, but globally, there's not consensus over the war in Gaza, and so that's why I became really interested in the topic, and that's why I still remain focused on it.
Stella Micheong Cheong 03:52
And Subham?
Subham Barua 03:53
Thank you. So my name is Shubham baroa, and I just graduated from the University of California Riverside as well. With my bachelor's in political science, with a concentration in international affairs and economics, my academic focus is mainly conflict resolution, particularly violent extremism or violent conflict of any form. And I have a bit of experience researching environmental war crimes, international law, and the Afghan takeover and anything related to counterterrorism. So yeah, and I'm really interested to talk about this issue for a variety of reasons. The first thing being like as a student, especially kind of like within this decade, you don't really get to see like, have a like, any form of participation, of protests in terms of international issues in on American campuses, mainly related to domestic civil rights. If you've seen like, the protests regarding the US Supreme Court overturned Roe v. Wade, those are the primary responses you get. I. And so it's very interesting to see how different students from like all over the world and also Americans, kind of unite and talk about these issues. And for me personally, I'm an international student from Bangladesh. We do have our own history with oppression and conflict. So when I see this issue come up. I It's a very similar to what the Irish MP said about like seeing our own history unfold with the Palestinian people. So that's why I'm very interested as well.
Stella Micheong Cheong 05:32
And you know, personally I think the Israeli plastic Palestinian conflict has persisted for decades. But why do you think there is a resurgence of intense campus activism now in particular, can you share your thought?
Jayden Carmona 05:55
Yeah, I would say, I mean the obvious. I think reason is the October 7 attack followed by the war on Gaza. That's the obvious answer, and I think it's definitely true that that's the reason that we've seen a huge research issue. But I also think for a lot of people, this is the first time that they're really seeing this topic brought up. I know for a lot of people, I certainly didn't have wasn't very familiar with the conflict before October 7, and so for a lot of young Americans, this is really the first time understanding the issue, getting a full lay of the facts, and really seeing it come up. And so I think for a lot, and I think for a lot of people, it's been a way for them to start understanding international politics. You know, before when I would have discussions about international politics with my peers in school, pretty much the only people I'll be able to be able to have a discussion with where other international politics, or at least political science majors, where now more people have an opinion, because this has been kind of the opening event to get them interested in international politics.
Subham Barua 07:02
I Yeah, yeah, agreeing with those points as well. I think this like, if I had to pinpoint kind of like, two or three reasons, I think the first would be what I already mentioned about the fact that in the past couple of years, there's been a sequence of social justice issues that have been in the spotlight, which have mobilised students, and like Roe vs. Wade being a really, really major one, right? So these kind of issues are making students be more conscious, because they realise, okay, these are issues that affect me. And now students are also realising that foreign policy is not too far off, that they realise that their taxpayer dollars, that they're contributing, or the institutions that they were studying in are a part of the larger military industrial complex that the US government that takes a part of. So, they kind of want to have a say in that, and oftentimes not just in the US, but in other countries like you may elect your leaders, but there is a big disjunct once the leaders are in office, like you may realise circumstances are changing and you want, might want certain things, but your leaders are not really meeting those demands. So students have taken the initiative to kind of demonstrate their frustration by going on protest. Another thing that would probably tie into why right now there's a intense Resurgence is due to like the simple fact that right now, more than ever, you have access to information about conflicts. You see how bad the sufferings are, yeah, oftentimes they might be misconstrued, but regardless, you are seeing like raw images of children getting bombed. You're seeing hospitals being blown up. And the fact that social media and mainstream news media, especially in the US, the intensity of the outreach that it has, especially on students who are constantly on their phones, these are kind of mobilising them to kind of come to the forefront and be like, Hey, we are actually concerned about these issues. And the last thing would, obviously, I would say, be associated with other students. Like, if you're in a classroom, you probably know someone who's being affected by the contact right now, and if you're in good or bad terms with them, you'd still show some sort of support or even dissent. And these are what's leading to, like, all these massive conglomeration of students, whether in support of a certain side or against and you'll see all these clashes that are happening all across campuses. And historically, if you see any social justice movements student run in the US, the UC particularly, have always been very, very active, and that has been the case here as well. You've seen clashes between students and, sorry, students and loan enforcement across pretty much all the major UC campuses. Luckily, our campus has not been at the tail end of it, but UC San Diego, UCLA, they've faced a massive, massive like clashes.
Stella Micheong Cheong 09:57
Alright, okay. Thank you so much. And Subham, as you pointed out, I do agree about the role of social media or the impact of the social media, so I wonder of your thoughts and your personal opinion on social media. Do you think social media has played in organising protests, keeping the narrative around the conflict?
Subham Barua 10:28
Okay, so that's a very important question, and this will this is a topic that I can talk about a little extensively on, simply because I was a research intern at a think tank back home during the second Taliban takeover, like right as it was happening. And Afghanistan and Bangladesh are only separated by Pakistan and India, so they're not that far off. In fact, if you look at the history of radicalization in Bangladesh, it all like points down to the first Soviet invasion and the entire like the Jihad that happened in Afghanistan. So what I'm trying to say is social media right now is a very big tool for shaping narratives, particularly whether you want to shape a very radical narrative, and this is a lot of the research that I conducted. So, what happened in the Afghan tele like the second Afghan Taliban takeover was social media was the means through how current, let's say, radical narratives are sustained, right? Because previously, you need for any form of legitimacy to happen. You need any sort of like, direct experience in the conflict. But you do not need that anymore right now, because social media can act as your leverage to provide legitimacy. And social media with, compounded with the capabilities of generative AI and any other form of AI you can, kind of like, computing images or bring up or make videos, or like, you know, have a lot of audios, fake or real, kind of even further affect these narratives that are happening, and this is more like prevalent if you think about generations, or the age demographics of people who might not be as technologically savvy as myself or Jayden, who are on a college campus. So maybe, let's say, my parents, or their generation who might not be as well knowledged in social media might think, Okay, what they saw a face random Facebook post from some random group, and they think, like, oh, this might be real, right? And because of how the algorithm works, it's more like a demand supply algorithm, as opposed to like, you know, providing authentic news, right? So definitely, if more people are seeing the same sort of news, they're going to get that type of news more whether it's real or fake. So in that way, social media and the algorithm compounded with generative AI definitely, definitely plays a huge role in how the narrative is shaped, especially in countries where like tech literacy or tech savviness might not be as profound, yeah.
Stella Micheong Cheong 13:06
And Jayden, would you like to add something and your opinion?
Jayden Carmona 13:11
Yeah, I would say for me. I mean, I mean, just personally, like, like, when I was first doing the Ukraine, Russia war and really researching and trying to understand it. It's really easy to see numbers on a page, right? This is how many casualties are appearing. This is the type of warfare that people are engaging in. It's really easy to see words on paper. But for me, you know, there are videos out there of people dropping, you know, drones on soldiers. You know, of warfare. I think Ukraine and Russia was the first war where you really had this effect of getting up to date. You know, warfare really at certain points. I mean, to be honest, it looked like a video game, like, legitimately, right, some of the warfare they're engaging in, and it's really heartbreaking to imagine these are real people who are going through this horrible war. So for me, it really made me more personally invested in the outcome of the war, and beyond just an academic approach. Obviously, before that, I was, interested, but it really made me empathize the suffering of the Ukrainians who are being attacked and the Russian soldiers who had been drafted into this war. And that's kind of the effect I think, that social media is having on everyone now that everyone has a phone.
Stella Micheong Cheong 14:41
I would like to talk about another issue on antisemitism, as I read the news on some concern on antisemitism. So how do you respond to accusations that the pro-Palestinian protests have led to increased antisemitism and intimidation on campuses?
Subham Barua 15:12
Yeah,that's a definitely very sensitive question that has been like, floating around recently. And if I have to be like, very like, brutally honest about how to answer this question. You have to kind of look at it like you have to take a perspective on it, right? So, for example, any issue that's as divisive as this will lead to hostilities from each side with radical thinkers, right? So, for example, let's say radicals who might be sympathisers of Hamas will certainly say things or support things that are antisemitic, right? But it's important to mention that these people are not like the average sample. They're definitely a lot of radical people, or a lot of like hard sympathisers of Hamas who felt this way and who have expressed their opinions. We I do not believe me and Jaden have seen such a messaging on our campus or any of the other UC campuses, per se. However, I'm certain that like these people do exist, but I would not say that they are like a really significant population to where, to the extent that, you know, it would become, like a huge issue again, or to be of any concern the like it's, I would say it's the simple outcome of, whenever there's a divisive political issue, you have hardliners on both sides, and these are the typical hardliners that exist, and definitely a lot of them are propagating antisemitic rhetoric.
Jayden Carmona 16:41
I agree, definitely. I think social media, as I was talking about before, has this effect where the most extreme parts of the opposition are highlighted. So for you know, and so for the Palestinian protests, that is the people who are saying and saying things, and there are going to be those people, I don't think there's going to I think there definitely was. Is probably a rise in antisemitism because of this war. I think, I think that's natural. When you have it's not good. Don't get me wrong. I say it's natural. I'm trying to morally load it, but I'm saying that, that when you have an Israeli war, a Jewish state that is engaging in warfare, and in a controversial warfare, you're going to have a rise in antisemitism just, just naturally. Again, not to say it's good, and I think it certainly isn't helped by campuses, by certain controversial chants, such as ‘globalising Intifada’ or ‘from the river to the sea.’ I think those chants, are controversial and I think I can understand, especially for something like globalise Intifada, where if you're, if you're a Jewish person on campus, you're probably not going to be super happy to hear that. But I, when I first heard those chants, and I, you know, and doing research, I started talking to some of my classmates, and to be honest, a lot of them didn't necessarily know what the full connotations of that were, or what it was. I think 99% of protesters are just people who see the suffering and are trying to stop it the only way they know how. And so I don't think antisemitism is going to be a major concern in the US.
Stella Micheong Cheong 18:35
In terms of antisemitism, do you think this antisemitism will impact on upcoming election?
Subham Barua 18:48
That's a very good question. And just to, like, kind of add on to what Jayden saying, which is like, I think in terms of the elections, definitely, I think more hardliner conservatives of the Republican Party will definitely weapon. Will definitely weaponize a lot of these narratives. So for example, let's say we'll talk about the channel from the river to the sea Palestine is free, right? A lot this chant is very misconstrued, oftentimes, because it's more of a anti-imperialist, anticolonial chant as like a as a form of resistance, as opposed to litter. It's as opposed to what the misconstrued version is, which is like, Oh, they want to obliterate the State of Israel, which is not true, but this is how it's probably will be framed during campaigns. And if you will look at the upcoming talk shows, where you have a lot of the presidential candidates that they do bring up, like these things up quite a bit, even, like the existing president, whenever they talk about the issue that's at hand right now, they will put the spotlight on Israel, let's say saying, like, okay, Israel needs to stop the amount of proportion. Reality of what it's doing right now, however, they have the right to defend their country, and we should always be against antisemitism, so that's how they're going to tie it in to like, in terms of like, their campaigning, yeah.
Jayden Carmona 20:15
Yeah, I would say, I think, I think it's an interesting question of how it'll change US politics. Because I think, I don't think I'm a Democrat and what's it called? I'm coming from very Democrat perspective. But I think that, you know a lot, to a certain extent, I don't think the Republicans have a…they kind of flip flop back and forth Trump does on what specifically he's he wants to do about these issues. He tries to, you know, entice call students to vote for him, while also decrying antisemitism on the other side. So I and so I don't necessarily know how much this, the antisemitism issue will affect the US election specifically, because I think the opposition, Trump, I think flip flops back and forth a lot on those issues. And so I think it might be just another cultural war issue that kind of melds into the mass of the American consciousness. I don't necessarily know if it'll stick out particularly.
Stella Micheong Cheong 21:19
Oh, brilliant! And I know the Jayden and Subham, you both have Democratic perspective. But do you worry Republicans will use the campus unrest around this issue to paint Democrats as radical or dangerous in the upcoming presidential election?
Subham Barua 21:46
Um, yes, and I said, but the way I would phrase it is, this is not something that would be surprising, because with the way, if you follow any form of American political discussions on mainstream media. It's always about weaponizing the most little things and like using it to score what we call broadcasting points, right? So I think in that regard, it is to be expected. And I think what I don't think I the one has to be too radical. What I'm more worried about is how Republicans will use this to kind of convert a lot of the median voter who are like moderates and in the US. If you look at the voting demographics for the at least the last two elections, the median voter has not voted a lot of the time, and that's what led to a lot of the election results, or to sway one way or the other. So I'm the only thing I'm concerned about is that a lot of the median voter might be swayed by these kind of phrasings or narratives in regards to the current issue, and that's my only concern.
Jayden Carmona 23:00
To be honest, I think I'm less concerned about it than the bomb is. I think that. I think, to be honest, I don't know how much this topic, as much as it honestly saddens me. I don't think this topic will move people either way, because I don't think Americans care that much about international politics, right? If you look at the topics that people really care about. You're talking about economy, health care etc. And usually, as much as it saddens me, even actual politics is down the list. I wish people cared about it more and so and so. I do wonder if it will really affect people. I think there are interesting cases, right? Like, in Michigan, there was a group of Muslims that vowed that they wouldn't vote for Biden. And that's actually, you know, looking like it'll affect the state elections. So I think those are interesting kind of outlier cases. But on the broad scale, I don't know how much international politics really affects American elections. Much saddens me.
Stella Micheong Cheong 24:03
Okay. Thank you so much for sharing your concern (Laugh). But let's talk about hope. So beyond the protest, the student engagement, this protest, and how do you think your generation will shape U.S. Policy on Israel-Palestine in the coming years?, what gives you hope?
Jayden Carmona 24:41
I would say, I guess what gives me hope is that is that is as much as I just said a minute ago, that I don't think you know foreign policy is that important to American people. I think anything that gets people more active is a good thing. I think it's really sad to me that um, I believe in American civic duty, and I think it's really sad that people don't vote and people don't make their policy known, because we live in a democracy, and we have a duty to show the government either your happiness or your just happiness with the current status quo. So I think, I think the fact that people are getting invested and people are understanding more about what their country does and what their country's position is, it’s a good thing, and I think it can only change it in a good way, because it'll make people it'll make America more representative what the people actually want. So I think it's great that people are getting more invested.
Subham Barua 25:45
yeah. Just to, like, expand on that as well. I think what gives me hope, other than the things that Jayden has mentioned, is the fact that, I think especially after the crisis in Ukraine, I think to a lot of Americans, particularly students, they realise that, although yes, I agree with Jayden that foreign policy is not the frontier of like American politics, like you will see many American presidents get reelected with horrible, horrible foreign policy decisions. And Um, even then, I feel like due to the economic crisis and the economic shocks faced by the oil crisis as a result of Ukraine and Russia. I think students are finally realising that global shocks do affect America, whether they want to or not. And I feel like a lot of students have taken upon themselves, especially as you'd see in the campus protests. And I think that a lot of up and coming, hopefully, up and coming students that we'll see in office in DC at in the White House will hopefully be some of our own counterparts, whether they're from the GP or not. And hopefully, I feel like they'll kind of take it to they'll actually push it to policy and not just like, put it on television and talk about it. And the other thing that gives me hope is that there have been instances where a lot of very influential and notable leadership in the State Department, senior leadership, have taken stances that have been traditionally against US foreign policy. If we take a really notable example, if you look at Samantha Powers, she's the current administrator of US aid, but she was notably known in being Department representative from President Obama. This is when the US abstained from the UN resolution that formally recognised Israeli settlements as illegal. That was a monumental thing, because historically, the US has always voted in favour of Israeli resolutions. She even wrote a Pulitzer winning book, Problem from Hell, where, through a vast amount of research, she demonstrated the cases where the US could have taken action in many of the genocides that have happened, including the one in Armenia, but the US just didn't do it because it was not in the best interest. So if leadership from her generation are finally starting to sway and show signs that, you know, we need to take the more responsible action in this international community as a as a strong actor, I feel like hopefully there'll be more people like her going into the State Department.
Stella Micheong Cheong 28:26
Wow. Thank you so much. Jayden and Subham, and then I know my colleague Adam and Kamille have a lot of questions, so I'd like to pass over to my colleague, Adam and Kamille.
Adam Peter Lang 28:45
Thank you very much, Stella. Yeah, just to come back on a few things, put it in a global perspective, and thank you very much for your contributions at your university. Is there still a camp there in place? I wasn't trying to read a little bit in advance. I wasn't sure whether that has now been removed because the universities said that it's going to do something about disinvesting in Israel. Could you just let us know what the latest position is at Berkeley on that?
Subham Barua 29:18
Oh, so it's UC Riverside, and the encampment is not there anymore. The encampment has ended because, as GP announced that they sat down with the consular and the primary authorities and that they met the initial demands of divestment, which is essentially all the companies such as Coca Cola or all the vendors that are a part of our campus that the administration will take a step to find alternate vendors or just completely divest overall. However, later on, SGB also released a statement saying that in the in the actual release on the website and. Um, that the chancellor, or whoever the PR person was, that the notice they made was actually not the actual, the actual agreed upon, um, initial agreement they had. So there has been, like, a bit of like disagreement in, like the terms of public announcement. But no, there is no more encampment at on our campus.
Adam Peter Lang 30:19
what about other universities across the states? Are there still encampments there?
Subham Barua 30:27
So it depends on which university, because of, like, the fact that, like, the semester just ended, so a lot of students will already be away from campus. But more importantly, a lot of private universities are not letting their students have encampments. And the way that works is like, you know, private universities have a little more jurisdiction of how proper their own property functions, yes, so I'd say, if you look at on average, the private university probably not. And I know the UCLA also doesn't have its encampment in place anymore because of the intense class that they had with the police?
Adam Peter Lang 31:06
Yes,I just wondered, because I actually went at UCL last week. I went to the encampment that's in the quad and spoke to some of the students that are there. They were telling me they're going to stay there all summer until the conflict is finished. Have you actually yourselves, either of you two actually been in the encampments and camped out or kind of, I was just interested in what actually dynamics are coming out of the more informal discussions that are taking place amongst the student population. I mean, do you want to comment on anything to do with that?
Jayden Carmona 31:40
Yeah, I was not in the US, actually, when the encampment by the time the encampments really started, I was working, and then I went to South Korea for five months. So, and you'll say actually had a very small encampment, but I have not personally seen an encampment now,
Subham Barua 32:05
Yeah, I have. I've attended the UCR encampment. I've stayed for two days, but I've been to all the major rallies. I'm also been to the one at UCLA. The dynamics are very different, and my guess is it's because at UCR, it's a very diverse campus. It's the most diverse UC in the entire system. So we have, we do not have a single dominant group with around the surrounding neighborhood. It's also a college town, so it's primarily students who are pretty much more or less for like, you know, most social justice causes. However, UCLA is located in Westwood, which is near Culver City. Culver City is a very Jewish dominated neighborhood, like, there's a huge, huge, like, a very significant population of the Jewish community present there. And that's why I feel like in the UCLA encampment, it was way more volatile because when I went there, there were the presence of a lot of Zionists as well, and a lot of them were like, I don't want to call them agitators, but kind of and then, and that's why, when the clash happened, it wasn't just the clash with the police, it was also clash with pro-Zionists and the Police. So the dynamics kind of vary based on location. And I'm my like, my educated guess would be like, if there is any sort of, like a more or less a really significant Jewish population around the community, there will be more intense classes in the encampments. Yeah.
Adam Peter Lang 33:37
Okay. Thank you for that. Just one of the books that we started looking at very early on with our podcast was work by Michael Apple. Actually, I'm not sure whether he's American or Canadian, but the struggle for democracy and education, it's so really, I just wanted to ask you, is the what's going on in the student movement at the moment? And I only want you really to comment on your you know, what you've seen and what you've experienced? Do you think there's a big influence there in changing of attitudes, or, you know, a bit like there was during the Vietnam conflict with the campaign against apartheid that you mentioned earlier? I just wondered whether there's a sort of sea change in young people, students, maybe approaches to citizenship and education in this time that we're at the moment, or do you think it's just a sort of phase we're going through? I just wondered what you might think about that your sort of your influence, but also the legacy of this movement, really, I suppose that's what I'm talking about.
Subham Barua 34:37
So in terms of this specific movement for the Palestinian cause, like this specific one there, I'd say this one is definitely a unique one in the sense where, at least on our campus, specifically, most student organisations, if not all, have taken an active step to show solidarity, an active step to kind of descent to the school administer. Which is, historically, not necessarily been the case always. I'd say this, the encampment that has happened here, in terms of, like, the numbers of protesters, is a bigger number than during the protest for Roe v Wade. So that is our campus specifically. And I think a lot of the reasons it's like a build up, right? So you see the issues of Roe vs. Wade, you see the other issues that are going on in terms of immigration, that's been like issue of late, and now you have the issue in Palestine, where you see physical clashes between students and the police, which has not erupted like for quite a while, like in across campuses at least at this capacity. So I feel like, other than the Black Lives Matter movement, this particular movement has kind of incited a lot of, how do I say, a lot of interest. But I think this impact should last at least until the election because a lot of students are kind of realising that, okay, we really want to do something about it, and with the upcoming election that's coming, this is our chance to kind of vote and do it. But once again, it's very hard to tell with American polls, because, like, as Jayden will tell you, like the median voter tends to be very rigid in their stance. So I'm really hoping, or at least the feel I get, is that students, there will be a bigger turnout, at least from student voters. So yeah.
Jayden Carmona 36:28
I actually have mixed thoughts about this topic, because I, you know, talking to especially like my mother, who we talk a lot about politics, she has this idea of the American College that it's very political, you know, people are arguing about politics all the time. It's very, very radical. And that is true to what extent. But also, to be honest, a lot of the American, or, sorry, a lot of the college body is pretty uninterested in politics. It's usually these kinds of edges, mostly left. You know, they're usually some bright edge. But people who usually care about politics within college, like me, care a lot, and the people who don't care are just go about they go to class, they go to their physics class, they go home, right? But I think this topic specifically is kind of moved beyond that to an extent where I think, I think, like even something like Roe vs Wade, which I think probably affected more people's daily lives than the Israeli, at least in America, than the Israeli Palestinian conflict. I think this, this got less attention. I think this has now moved into a mainstream discussion where even the protests against for something like Roe vs Wade weren't so I think, and I think it's very difficult. This is a unique topic where it's very difficult to say silent on where people usually have opinions, and they want your opinion. And you know, so I think this topic specifically, people care a lot about, and for good reason. And so, yeah, I hope that answers your question.
Adam Peter Lang 38:12
Yes. Thank you very much. I'll pass over to Kamille now. Thank you.
Kamille Beye 38:18
Thank you guys. Thank you so much so as an American, and then also on the East Coast. I feel like the protest on the East and the west coast have different vibes, and I want to know if you guys have any I have my own experience, but I want to know what your experience is with your peers on East Coast universities in comparison to the protest that took place on the West Coast universities.
Jayden Carmona 38:45
I can speak on it, (yeah, go first). So at Yonsei, I went as part of the DC AP group, which has all students from California, but actually, my closest American friends were from DC, so I kind of got a whole diaspora of people who from the west and the east coast. And I think you do see a lot of differences. A lot of my friends from the east coast were from, like AU, you know, these very political schools. And I think, I think, to be honest, my personal interpretation could have just been the people I talked to, was that the East Coast persons were very intense and very dedicated, and the people there care a lot about it. I think a lot of that has to do with right you have schools in DC, which is kind of the political centre of the United States. And also West Coast people have a have a kind of reputation for being more relaxed. And so I think my interpretation is that the east coast was very intense. And while the west coast was also intense, the east coast was more so.
Kamille Beye 40:01
Thank you, and I wanted to talk about you talked a lot about Roe vs. Wade, and how people started to get the young people started to get, I guess, politicised, because it affects their daily lives. But I wanted to counter that, because I wanted to go back and start it off with DACA, for people in the US, if you are talk about immigration and foreign policy, I think those two kind of go hand in hand here, where we're talking about the quote, unquote border issues on the southern border, and it goes with DACA, which is the dreamers act. So I think that when we had this transition in presidency from Obama to Trump, and this issue what to do with the DACA, became more profound in our society. I think that you started to see young people start galvanising, because they didn't realise that their peers couldn't get the same rights as other Americans. But then, of course, we have Black Lives Matter, and then we have Roe vs Wade, and then we have now the Israeli Hamas conflict. And I wanted to ask you about the Roe vs Wade and Israeli Hamas conflict, particularly because I see a religious element to both of these. Obviously, we know Israel and Hamas, but the way that they are marketed in the American news media seems to be around, of course, conservative and liberal, but the issues around faith, and I feel that with the Israeli Hamas, particularly there, in my opinion, there's a bias toward Islam in the US. And I'm just curious as to what you guys think about how that plays out in the media. And then if you look at Roe vs Wade, we talk about the Christians vs the secular liberals versus conservative. I wanted to know if you see any parallels between these two protests on the grounds of faith, and maybe how that seep over into the political arena.
Jayden Carmona 41:46
Actually, I think it's interesting you said that America has a bias towards Islam. Because I actually, I agree with you in the I guess the young population, people have a more I think people have a pretty binary view, to some extent, of oppressed vs oppressor. So they view Islam as, to a certain extent, pretty oppressed in America. But I think in the older population, I don't think that exists nearly as much. I think the older population is a heavy bias towards Christianity. And you get a lot of that Muslim fear that's left over from 911 you know these, I think the views are pretty like, very different, depending on age group especially. And I do agree there is this element of faith. I think we're seeing a little bit of a kind of resurgence in American faith-based thought, right? We just had that, that law passed in Louisiana, that now the 10 commandments have to be in every classroom. Yeah. And I think it's interesting too, because I think a lot of times people don't realise why we have this separation of church and states, right? You look at the older Christian population in they would love for the 10 Commandments to be posted, but if you talk about, you know, parts of the Quran being having to be posted in every classroom, right? They'd be totally against it. And so I think people are really happy to do, you know, rules for me, but not for the or cetera, either the or not for me, you know. So I think, yeah, I think there is an interesting I get, kind of resurgence of the American Christian.
Subham Barua 43:26
Yeah. I was also going to add, like, there's definitely some similarities you would see in the characterization, and I think it's largely down to the fact that it's easier to simplify, because, like, if you ask, if you go through the broader conflict, or just dig a little deeper. It's really about land, and I think in the US, it's more digestible to talk about religious differences, and it's more also not as digestible. It's easier to sell to like, consumers of media that, Oh, you like, like, because of like, the religious demographics that exist in America. Oh, this is not just an issue that, like, use the Jewish community should care about, but maybe also Christians as well. And then you kind of separate, and then you kind of fall back into the age old American problem of identity politics, and then you kind of, like, recategorize yourself. And that definitely, I think, plays a really big role into, like, how, like, you know, the mainstream media kind of propagates this issue. So for example, like, let's talk about the word antisemitism. It's a very big buzzword in the US, right? And if you're labelled as being antisemite in any way or form, you're basically what, you know, the kids we call, either you get cancelled or you're going to be slapped on the wrist with some form of like thing or the other but, I mean, you know, as a student of political science, I wanted to obviously understand, Wait, where did this originate? What is antisemitic? And then you look at it, and then, like, you know, you understand that, like the summit. Like ethnicity, which is not used anymore, but like automatic language is not just exclusive to the Jewish population. It's also it's inclusive of Arabs. It's inclusive of a lot of the previous Mesopotamian civilizations as well. But then we obviously kind of adopted like this more Jewish centric idea of antisemitism, right? Which is, I'm not saying necessarily a bad thing, but it's important to know this, but like it. When you sell this, this phrase, to the American public as a mainstream media channel, you're definitely going to make it more digestible by saying, Oh, this affects the Jewish community, period. Yeah.
Kamille Beye 45:37
Thank you. I think I have two more questions if we have time. Alright, so my first question, I'll be very quick. So earlier, I can't remember which one of you mentioned, but you said that you didn't think that there would be an impact in the fall election based on the Gaza. And I went to disagree, and I was going to talk about that some more. So I work in the voting. I don't work. I volunteer for the polls every time I can, and I'm always talking to would be voters. And I live in Maryland. I live right outside of Washington, DC, and a lot of people here. Maryland's a democratic state, but a lot of people here, particularly of colour, voted uncommitted for Joe Biden as a protest to the Israeli Gaza conflict, and there have been lots of they call them barbershop discussions, and they're talking to people in these barbershops and just local community events about their displeasure regarding the Biden administration response to the Israeli conflict. And while some people are not going to not vote, they're not going to vote for Joe Biden, which is a problem here. And obviously he will, probably will. He will win Maryland. But if we have people with the same sentiment around the country, that does pose a problem for Biden overall. And they did have us the head of the Arab Council, and he, he was quoted saying something to the effect of, you know, there's a lot of Arab and Muslim people in the US, and there's not enough to make them win an election, but there's enough people who make them lose by not casting their vote. And so I do think, as this war drags on, that that might be a potential challenge for Biden getting reelected in certain states, and I want to know if you got any further thoughts.
Jayden Carmona 47:25
Yeah, I was the one who said, I don't, I don't necessarily, I don't necessarily know if it'll affect the election. I said that because I've kind of, I guess I've been disappointed before with the Americans commitment to foreign policy, to sit straight. A lot of people had a lot to say about Obama's foreign policy, which, I mean, I was young at the time, but it's fair right to talk about bomber's foreign policy and whether he blundered or whether he messed up. But I think, I think, unfortunately, what people care about is, like, is the economy doing good, or these, these kind of, you know, do people care about health care and so and so, I do wonder. And also, I mean, to be fair, right? Look at Trump, right? Trump moved the embassy to Jerusalem, right? He is courting these voters. And I mean, personally, I think Biden would be better for the country, but honestly, I would just prefer that people vote how they want to vote, and care about these issues, because I think it's so important, even if we do, even if, like I, you know, let's, let's say, right, if everyone voted and Biden lost, I would be more okay with that, as long as people express their democratic will. I think that's super important and but again, to circle back around. I don't know. I could be wrong. I may have been wrong before. Don't get me wrong. I don't I don't know how much it'll affect the fall election.
Kamille Beye 48:49
Yeah, you're right. Political winds changed, and people have selective and short amnesia. Excuse me. So they, yeah, they don't vote just on this, but I just wanted to highlight that. And then can I
Adam Peter Lang 49:01
just quickly come in there? Because there's an election taking place in the UK on the Fourth of July, and it is an issue. This is an issue. I mean, I'm doing a lot of canvassing for one political party, and it is an issue. And in some parts of the country, not all, it is going to be quite a key issue as to who is going to be elected or not. And that's not just with young people. Quite a lot of young people feel very strongly about it, but actually with the Muslim families that I speak to who are not going to vote for the Labour Party and tell me that they may change their mind because of the other dynamics that are taking place. But it has, and in certain areas, it is much more significant than I think the media sometimes presents. So there's a interesting sort of thing going on underneath the surface that we wait to see how it plays out, both in the UK and, of course, in America in November. Sorry to interrupt.
Subham Barua 49:56
No, I think Jayden I both are hoping. It does affect the elections, because that's what we want. We want people to care about this. It's just sadly, I think historically, a lot of especially when it comes to the presidency, specifically, like when you even go through a lot of the presidential debates and you see presidents coming out with these outrageous foreign policy initiatives that they have, they still get elected. And that's what, like, I think, was our biggest concern of like, in terms of like, kind of having the effect or not. And like, I'm actually really glad to hear that the UK is actually being more decisive about this issue, these issues. So, yeah, yeah.
Kamille Beye 50:39
And then my last question is, I want to know what you think about the media coverage of the student protest because I feel like the protest coverage is a distraction for larger issues, but I want to hear more about you guys, and so you guys have this experience, and you guys are young people on college campuses. So what role do you think the media has played in exacerbating or helping get the image, get the images and get the demands of students out to the public?
Subham Barua 51:10
I think that's a really, really great question. Because yes, I think dodging has been a really, really big tactic that's been used in the US to kind of shy away from really, really important issues or issues that they might be really uncomfortable to talk about, especially given the current circumstances, like, for example, nobody is ever speaking about the exact number of the death tolls. And I understand that it's really, really hard to talk about the exact numbers, right, because of the lack of international presence within like Gaza, but when the folk, when the mainstream media, zooms in on just the protest, it does take away from the suffering that's been going on. And I think, like one of the other issues that it ties into, is it fails to address the responsibility of the international community at large, and especially the United States, in addressing this humanitarian crisis, right? So, like, broadly, it's been a failure, obviously, but like, the fact that the mainstream media doesn't cover enough about the violations of international law that's going on, more specifically, the use of force and the laws of war all being violated, the fact that the mainstream media does not cover about the United Nations' Responsibility to Protect even though Palestine is not a state. I understand that, but like these issues are not being talked about, or the fact that, like, the issue of Palestine has been the first issue that the United Nations has adopted after its formation, but it's still not being resolved. And then, like, all these, like, really, really big burdening issues where the United States is a major player in the Middle East, it's, it's a really, really big question mark that, like, in my brain, at least as to, like, why are we not talking about these issues enough? Thank you.
Jayden Carmona 53:03
Just to add on a little bit, I think, I think the media right now, unfortunately, because of social media, we're kind of stuck in a loop where it's whatever, just whatever gets the most clicks. You know, I agree. It's been a distraction on the more important topics these more you know, I look at these old debates we used to have between foreign policy experts on national television, and I wonder, and I especially feel disappointed that, you know, today I feel like as America, I love my country a lot. I'm an Eagle Scout, right? Like I grew up budget allegiance every Wednesday during my meetings, right? I think it's really sad that we don't have that level of transparency. I feel like we used to have with our foreign policy goals and our foreign policy understanding. I feel like, you know, I think I'm more positive on America than my friend is. I think we do have noble goals in the world. And I think, I think, I think America is a force, in my opinion, for good, and I think, I think we're a better, certainly, what's it called? A better, you know, country to take head on foreign policy matters than Russia or China right now and but I think it's really sad that we can't have these, these four policy discussions because of the state of our media. Right? State of our media is really focused on what gets the most clicks, what gets the most attention. And I don't think it's a, it's a, necessarily, an issue that can be solved easily. I think this is something that will have to take a structural change, both from the citizens and to the media. Don't ask me what the solution is. I have no idea. But yeah, I think it is definitely something that needs to change.
Kamille Beye 54:39
Thank you both. So we're coming to the conclusion with either of you or both. Do you like to leave us with any parting words?
Jayden Carmona 54:49
Yeah, I'll go first. Really quickly. I got into politics in general because of Trump getting elected. Actually, I didn't understand how this happened. Everyone, everyone around. He said he was a joke candidate. He was going nowhere, and they got elected. So I wanted to know how that happened. And then I got into international politics, because I'm Cuban, and when my family talked about, you know, the Bay of Pigs, or the Cuban Missile Crisis, 1961-1962. I wanted to understand what that meant. I wanted to understand, well why they were conservative. And so those two experiences led me to my current focus on international politics, and as I've understood more and more about politics, the more and more I've been really saddened about the state of American civil citizenship, because I feel like, you know, after having gone to Cuba a couple times as a family, you know, and having visited China. Now, you know, talking to people there, they don't have elections, and they don't have the ability to interface with the political system on the same level. And so I really, really hope that people listening, or people in general, express their civic duty and go vote, and even if you go to the poll and put down no vote, I think that is a good use of your time and a good use of you showing to parties. Hey, this is not working for me, and I think we're blessed with a country where we can really affect that. And I think, you know, it's really our right and our duty to affect that change.
Kamille Beye 56:21
Subham, do you want to add anything?
Subham Barua 56:22
Yeah, completely agreed with Jayden’s closing remarks, I'll just make the point about how students can also not like apart from voting, you can definitely take participate in these important issues through also through your academia, and academics especially, and though, the way I'll reason that is through a lot of the papers that we write, although the essays or the policy memos that we write are regarding these complex issues and these complex conflicts. And I always whenever I'm studying with a friend, or whenever I have others like maybe my underclassmen asked me, well, how can you help me with this paper? I tell them that when you're writing about an issue such as a crisis, like let's say this, or whether it's genocide from a previous conflict, your goal shouldn't just be to get like the grade. It should also be to reflect the interest of the people you're talking about. Because often time, the people that are suffering through these crises, just like the Palestinians right now, they do not have a platform to represent, represent their struggles, or represent the degree of the suffering that's going on. So for example, when I write a paper on conflict resolution, on any conflict, I don't just read like the academic literature, but I also try to see victim testimonials to see that okay, are the problems that I am identifying the same as the problems the people that are facing them identifying? Are these aligning? Because if I produce literature that as let's say, if I become an expert, and I write something that will have weight, and if I identify the wrong problems that are completely disjunct from the people on the ground that's going to be a massive problem in the long run. So I hope that students whoever might be listening to this, they take that time and initiative to actually and the care to write about the correct or the more meaningful things. And yeah, those are my closing remarks.
Kamille Beye 58:22
Those are both wonderful. You guys are so amazing. And I have to say thank you both to Subham and Jayden for your time. It's been such a pleasure hearing about not only your work on the campuses with the protests, but just also your perspectives of young people and the Israeli Hamas conflict, and where you think young people can take our society. And I just want to say I'm happy that you guys talked about voting. We need everyone to vote, no matter who you vote for, to cast a vote in the US. And I like the idea of taking time to care and understand that you're speaking for those who don't have a platform. So those are things that all of us as researchers, academics, practitioners, should be thinking about as we move in our respective fields. And so I just want to say thank you again for your time in those beautiful remarks. So I'm closing the episode. I'm Kamille Beye, thanks for listening to conversations for citizenship. We hope you enjoyed this episode. Be sure to subscribe to conversations4citizenship and look for us on Twitter @c4c_ed, a transcript of today's conversation with Subham Barua and Jayden Carmona can be found at www.conversations4citizenship.com. This episode of conversations4citizenship was produced by me, Kamille Beye, Stella Cheong and Adam Lang, recorded and sound mixed by Stella Cheong. Many thanks. Take good care. Bye!