Professor Graeme Atherton joins the Conversations4Citizenship podcast to explore the evolving landscape of global higher education access, drawing on his leadership at WAHEN and Ruskin College. After detailing his own transition from a low-income background to academia, he analyzes how economic constraints and rising populism are threatening educational equity worldwide. Furthermore, Atherton examines the specific challenges facing the Global South, questioning the fairness of international university partnerships and the potential risks of quality assurance. Ultimately, he argues that while technology moves quickly, educational systems must urgently catch up to protect critical thinking and inclusivity for displaced communities.
In this episode, Dr. Adam Peter Lang and Dr. Kamille Beye interview Professor Graeme Atherton about the pressing global challenges of inequality and access in higher education. Professor Atherton, who leads the World Access to Higher Education Network (WAHEN) and the Ruskin Institute for Social Equity, shares his personal journey from a council estate in Blackpool to Oxford University, highlighting how this experience shaped his lifelong dedication to widening participation. He discusses the growing 'ideological pushback' against the value of inclusive education by populist movements and the structural difficulties of adapting elite university systems to serve the majority. The conversation also explores the historic role of Ruskin College in educating working-class adults and the complexities of ensuring international partnerships in the Global South remain genuinely equitable. Finally, Atherton emphasizes the need for curricula to adapt to AI while ensuring marginalized voices remain central to educational policy.
This episode is hosted by Dr. Adam Lang. Please subscribe to the podcast through Apple, Spotify, Amazon Music or Audible. You may also follow @c4cpodcast.bsky.social on Bluesky. We look forward to hearing your feedback. If you would like to explore participating in our podcast and submit your blog post to the C4C, do not hesitate to reach out through the online participation form or email us at conversations4citizenship@gmail.com
If you are curious about the World Access to Higher Education Network (WAHEN), check out his new book, 'Making Equal' and visit the WAHEN's website linked below.
Adam Lang 00:00
Hey. Welcome to Conversations4citizenship podcast. I'm your host today. I'm Dr Adam Peter Lang from University College London, and today we're exploring some important challenges, changes, and indeed, opportunities for universities and higher education in today's global world, and examining the thorny issue of access. And in doing so, taking a close look at Ruskin College, Oxford. So we have with us today, Professor Graeme Atherton, and he's recently this year 2025 co edited a very thought provoking book, Making Equal New Visions for opportunity and growth, which we will put as a reference on the podcast later. He's also got a wide range of experience and roles, and he's led regional, national, international initiatives to increase opportunity in higher education. He founded access HE and the national education opportunities network NEON , as it's known in the UK, and he now leads the world access to higher education network WAHEN which has its education day on the 28th of October of this month, and also the Ruskin Institute for Social Equity. So greetings, Graham, it's a pleasure to have you with us today on conversation citizenship. Thank you for giving up your valuable time. I hope you're well, and we're very much looking forward to our conversation. How are you doing? Okay?
Graeme Atherton 01:57
Adam, thank you, okay, given the circumstances that we all have to prevail under not too bad, not too bad, I suppose, looking forward to World Access Day, which, as you mentioned earlier on, is three weeks tomorrow, on the 28th of October, where we have a hybrid conference faith facing South Africa, University of Western Cape, but online as well free to access on the 28th of October. So yeah, we're looking forward to bringing world access to higher education day back. We haven't done this since 2022 so the first in three years. So excited about,
Adam Lang 02:34
oh, that's very exciting and very interesting. Okay, well, we've got some questions to ask you, but please feel happy. It's a conversation, but I'll kick off, if I may. Our listeners here at conversations with citizenship are a pretty eclectic bunch of early career scholars, practitioners, academics, teachers and much more. They're always very interested in our contributors, background stories and narratives. So Graham, could you start by telling us a little bit about yourself, what brought you into the work, and what drives and perhaps influences you in your academic work and research at the moment.
Graeme Atherton 03:10
Thank you, Adam. Well, in terms of my background, well, I come from Blackpool, which is a small seaside town in northern England. Many listeners may be familiar with Blackpool if they're from the UK, but if not, Blackpool has a tower that looks like a smaller version of Eiffel Tower if you have a good chance to go there. And I guess I was the first in my family to go to higher education. I grew up in a council estate, which is kind of, you know, equivalent, like they call projects in the US, generally low income backgrounds, those people, many people aren't working, many people on disability benefits, etc. My parents left school when they were 1314, never finishing school at all. So I was the first to go to university, and I went to University of Oxford. So it's quite a long distance culturally, if you like, from a council estate in Blackpool. And obviously, you know, making that journey for me had a profound effect on my life, both in terms of opportunities opened up for me, professionally, etc, but also in kind of reaffirming to me if I didn't already know the extent of inequality in society and extent of inequality within the higher education system, and since then, after doing my postgraduate degree, I really continued in that vein, really trying to take forward initiatives that would support widening access to higher education, both within the UK and outside, and as you said in your kind introduction, I set up London based network of universities, collaborating, working together to support greater access to education for those from low income and other underrepresented backgrounds. And. I set up a national organization in a similar vein, called neon in the UK, and also a global initiative as well. Regarding global work, I think it's worth discussing that a little bit. I mean, when we really set up neon and a national education opportunities network in 2011 the goal there really was to create a network that would bring together universities, schools, NGOs, and others who wanted to collaborate, share, practice, advocate as well to policymakers regards to the importance of extending access to higher education. But we also felt there was an international role to play. I had a little chat with Kamille before the session started. And for quite a while, I've been linked with colleagues across the world, particularly in the United States, where there's a long history of advocacy and activity to extend access to higher education for those from more backgrounds. But we also felt that there was maybe a chance of international collaboration, and a gap there in terms of bringing international work together. Well, of course, this area of work is domestic facing. You know, it's not necessarily about international students, and we know that's a part of it. It's about how we can enable greater populations, the communities of exiled and out of higher education, to enter into higher education. But nevertheless, even now the focus is primarily on work in individual countries. It doesn't mean that there isn't a merit value in working together globally, and you might argue, in the present times we face issues of equity and diversity and access across society, international collaboration between those who believe in such values is probably never more important. Maybe it is now, but we set up something called World access to education day around seven years ago. We had five such days and but then we believe there's a need for a network, and we set the world access to education network last year, with a number of organizations in the World Bank and UNESCO, collaborating with us to try and create a space where those who are involved in this area of work across the world could come together as a community, as a movement, and try and press for education to be something that's open to everyone and not, unfortunately, as it is still really available only to the few.
Adam Lang 07:30
That's very interesting, and your take, I'll ask you a little bit more in a second, if you may, about the actual day that you've got. But how can our listeners, as I said, an eclectic bunch from all over the world. We, I think we hit something like 84 different countries or something in our podcast. How can they contact what you call it,WAHEN and how do they find out more about that?
Graeme Atherton 07:53
Sorry, well, yeah, if you want to find out more about WAHEN or the world, access to education network. You can search and Google us and find us, and we've got a website there on the world access to HE.com and on there information about what we're doing, but there's a few resources on the website as well, for those who are interested, we have an equity policy map there, where we have information on policies that governments are undertaking with regard to higher education equity in nearly 100 countries, and it's searchable, so we just may be able to find information what's happening in terms of higher education equity policy in their own country. That's something we're updating. It's a live map that we have there. We also have an equity hub there, where we have examples, initiatives and strategies being undertaken by universities and others in over 60 different examples in equity hubs. So there listeners might be able to find out from the website alone about some of the things that are going on in their own particular country and are always interested in hearing more about what's happening in particular countries. The global pitch is evolving so quickly, and while we have as best as any of our organization does, I would say a kind of feel for what's happening across the world, we do know it's only a fraction of the field, because there are a lot of activities going on. We know there's a lot of challenges when it comes to supporting everybody from all backgrounds to enter higher education, but there's a lot of innovative work going on as well that there are many individuals and organizations and universities who are pursuing such work with regards to different groups. I mean focusing on lower social backgrounds, different ethnic groups, different religious groups, those disabilities, those broad backgrounds, again, how inequality manifests itself. As you know, Adam is different in different nations.
Adam Lang 09:53
Yeah, no, that's very interesting, and that's fantastic that you're given those sorts of ways in which our listeners can. Contact and get involved. They do contact us after our podcast and follow up. And actually just to let you know, one of the most recent ones we did was to do work that colleagues are doing in the Philippines, and we're actually doing one in a couple of weeks on what's been going on in Nepal recently with the students. And we've got a couple of students coming on with an academic that we know about what's been happening there in that country. So that's brilliant. Now, one of the themes we're exploring, we're in season four, actually, of our conversations for citizenship, several themes, issues and dynamics, but we're trying to touch on the changing world as you mentioned that of HE and universities globally, including in the Global South, but in the States and in the UK. But do you have any reflections and thoughts on these changes that are going on, or are these just challenges? Or are there some opportunities there?
Graeme Atherton 10:58
Looking at education globally? There's two or three ongoing challenges. I mean, firstly, it's economic. Most systems across the world are still looking to expand, particularly in the Global South. However, how you can expand and find the investment for expansion is very challenging. If we look at countries with you, look at the growth in higher education participation in the next 20 years. Numerically speaking, it's less likely to be in more developed systems, let's say in parts of North America or Europe where you will see growth. But obviously they'll taper out, taper them to a degree. There'll be less big expansion ,it's gonna be African, Asia. But how do you fund such systems? It is one challenge. The second challenge, alongside some of that, is where you have seen expansion. Sometimes expansion has moved quicker in the labor markets, so you've led to more education, participation, but also rising graduate unemployment or underemployment as so labor market is really caught up with the the influx of more qualified labor, and that leads you then to question, if you like, some of the validity of continued higher education expansion. So that's two ongoing challenges.
Now, the way I framed it recently, in terms of access their kind of structural and economic challenges, but the third one's more ideological, because at the same time as having those economic or structural challenges across the world, there was an acceptance, if you look at the the evidence on them on our website, when we did the last piece of work on looking at policies across the world, which is six or seven years ago now, and I did one about five years ago, I think that's 47 countries North Africa and Europe. The detail on individual country policies, where it came to say extended access to education was lower. There wasn't any detail. Many countries have detailed policies, but it prints the principles accepted, people will pay lip service to the idea that we need more access, and they generally bought into the idea that things need to be more equitable and diverse. What we've seen recently is a pushback on the principle, which is another new challenge, if you like, and that obviously, that's been led by a particularly powerful country in the world with a large education system, but we've seen some echoing of that. You know, across the world. You'll notice only at the weekend, we saw the Czech Republic elect a new president who manifestly says he's a Trumpist and admires, you know, Trump's policies, etc. So you're seeing, you know, other countries where this general populous a populist kind of right agenda comes into the fore, and often that agenda, you see a skepticism about the value of higher education, both in terms of its ability to produce knowledge. It's kind of a political basis, if you like, within those who participate in it and those who teach and teach within it as well. But alongside that, you know, in particular, work for access activities a question of the value of diverse participation, and that, I think, is probably the new element to it, but it ties into these other challenges as well. It fits in these other challenges as well. You must remember, you know, if you're thinking about the future of education globally, it is the challenges around academic freedom or or the nature of value, but it's also quite economic as well.
You know, I talk about research elements, but it's about participation and expansion. We've got a long challenge about how, how that's going to be managed. Then, of course, you get challenged in the global south issues like quality. You know, we have a movement when the public sector can't provide the private sector, or find steps in as a provider. Then you get interesting dynamics in countries where private provisions sometimes. Can be superior in quality to the public. There's more investment going in, but other instances can be less superior, as you get people coming in to provide higher education where quality is less and systems are as well developed.
Now finally, finish one optimistic though, in terms of access and college access, in the future of education globally is that if you look at more established education systems across Western Europe and say, you know, North America, etc, their systems were established at a time when the idea was a minority of people got higher education. It was for an elite, for 10% of the population, more or less. What's happened across all systems is the expansion has increased. So you have countries with 3040, 50, sometimes plus 50% entering education. But when you start you start a system when it's for a minority, and then it becomes for the majority. It's difficult for a system to adapt to change, so that is still built in in the way it develops its values. It structures the idea of being for a minority, the advantage that if you like opportunity, if you like that, growing systems have the ability to build into their systems. From the outset, the idea is for the majority, and thus, in doing so, build into your delivery norms, even things like timetabling, even things like course delivery or pedagogy or pastoral elements, you have an idea of an institution. The idea is for the majority.
So finally, to finish on one example, here in the UK, we have an old, well established system. Most of our universities were set up at least 30 to 40 years ago. Some, many, many, much longer than that. But there are examples of how providers have been set up relatively recently. There's one that was set up in Manchester called UA 92. It was set up by one of what's called a class of 92. Many of your readers, of your listeners, will be familiar with soccer, or football, the club Manchester United. Well, there were five players in Manchester United, David Beckham being one of them, Gary Neville being another one who became very famous through the title winning sides of the last 20 years. Gary Neville sets up UA92 AE higher education provider in Manchester, and it was set up explicitly to support access for a broader set of students. It's fascinating to go to that university and see what university it looks like. He was small, one that was built now and not built years ago, and see the way in which that issue sets up, both culturally and structurally, to enable a greater set of people to participate. So there's opportunity there, overall, system wide. But whether, of course, how that will play itself out with regards to the challenge to principle, we will have to see.
Adam Lang 18:02
Thank you very much. For that answer, that's very interesting. A Way into it for all of us, I think, to consider what's going on at the moment, in the world. Now, can I just have a wider global focus? But if I can just go back to a little bit , I said you had lots of different roles, and one of yours is connected with Ruskin College, Oxford, and some of the college I know something about, actually, from a few years ago, its history of opening its doors to those who historically have been marginalized. What's your role at Ruskin? What's happening there at the moment, and what is going on there in these challenging times, is that a sort of microcosm of wider things or or just tell us a little bit about Ruskin, of course.
Graeme Atherton 18:47
Thank you. Ruskin college was set up 126 years ago by two Americans to provide an Oxford based education for working class men. At the time, to be honest, that soon extended well into the early 20th century to working class adults. Ruskin became very closely associated with the trade union movement in the United Kingdom and associated the broader if you like, well, social, I guess, I guess labor movement, if you like. And that became a kind of frame for Ruskins work as a college throughout the 20th century, and for a long time, it provided opportunities for trade union members to enter education and then to undertake courses which would then lead them into university studies. Overall, it became a stepping stone back into education and university education, often for working with adults through the union movement, and as we got to the latter part of the sort. 20th century. In the early 21st Century, like many other small education providers, remember, Ruskin is a College in Oxford. It's not part of the Oxford University College system , for those listeners who are familiar with the way that system works, so it's more independent in its own way. Experience the economic challenges as many do, and it's Well it started to offer as well as higher education provision, a provision at a lower level than higher education and further education is called in the UK, provision. So for learners who were taking entry level courses, as well as for those taking bachelor's degree courses, that work is less well funded in the UK.
Ruskin ended up facing some real tough economic challenges into the 2010s and was on the verge of essentially being liquidated, and it wouldn't exist as a college anymore, and the land would have been sold, and it's very they would have maybe perhaps become part of another college, but not formally, but just really As a site, if you like, for student teaching, or for or for halls of residence. I, my actual work is based at University of West London. University of West London is a career based university, if you like. It's we offer more vocational courses, we offer academic courses, but we focus very much on on students and those again, from diverse backgrounds. More than 60% of our students are from non white backgrounds, and that's not international students. That's domestic students drawn from UK, many drawn from London, of course, as well as many of our students are first in the family to go on to our education. So we came in and we took over Ruskin college and brought it into part of our group of its own identity. Though it's still Ruskin college, its partner is the University of West London group. It started its own identity. We spent the past five years really trying to build on Ruskin's history, but to do that in the present day context, the union movement doesn't have the strength that it had in the UK in the mid part the 20th still a powerful actor. We still have over 5 million union, trade union members in the UK, but it's not the actor it was in the past and and the relationship has to be different to the unions they can't support. Students go to higher education with the high fees that we have in the UK. So yeah. I mean, we have now students at Ruskin, right from entry level students right through to degree students. But yeah, it's a challenge at Ruskin to maintain a small educational provider and to maintain the values of Ruskin as well, to be inclusive to all the best we can be, but in a challenging financial and structural environment for education?
Adam Lang 22:42
Yeah, definitely. No, no, that's brilliant. And as a former historian, I recommend our listeners to go on and find out a bit more about the history of Ruskin college. It's very interesting, just if I may say, a former deputy prime minister who passed away not long ago, John Prescott, was one of those who came through Ruskin College. How would our international scholars and students find out more about it? Is it straightforward? Just to go on to the website?
Graeme Atherton 23:15
The website will have a little history on Ruskin. It's got a brief history about Ruskin's work there. Also we have on the website some of the materials and reports we produced in the past four or five years at Ruskin focused on various aspects of inequality, particularly in the UK context, we've done a lot of work on regional inequality in the UK. For international readers, there's a high level of regional inequality in the UK for different parts of the United Kingdom, and we've looked at that closely. We looked at education inequality as well, the series of reports and studies there that readers may find interesting, as well as something on the history of the college there as well. What we're doing at the moment, I think the history is fascinating, but the challenge for us is really to build on that history and maintain a present for Ruskin, I think for often, when you have, I don't know, readers may be familiar, sorry, listeners in their own contexts, but when you are, I think I've been part of an organization that has a very specific and rich history, that history is often the organization's greatest asset, but also can be some of its greatest challenges, if you like. I think we see that with Ruskin as well. The history of Ruskin is one of our greatest assets. We're continually, as I met yourself, continually interacting and meeting people who were connected with Ruskin in the past, and these people have gone on to have various roles of influence and roles of importance across not just the labor movement, but across UK education and UK politics and policy, but at the same time. Of course, history is a challenge in a very practical sense. Ruskin is a small college on the outskirts of Oxford and and it's built and constructed in a way that old colleges are, and many students now want, as they do then, compared to you and I went first, went to university Adam Well, a different kind of experience now, and a different kind of things to offer and and often that's hard to provide smaller environments, so, we do have great assets, but also great challenges, I think, in providing a distinctive niche education for all.
Adam Lang 25:30
I think that's very honest of you to say that. But one of the reasons we've got you on here, Graham, is because just recently, and I've got it here, you've just co edited very interesting book called Making Equal New Visions for Opportunity and Growth, and I believe that that comes from many of the activities that Ruskin has been offering over the last couple of years. Can you tell us a bit more about the book and some of its contents and themes, and also something that you talked about just then, but about its relevance?
Graeme Atherton 26:02
Yeah, thank you, Adam. I mean, the book's really a product of a series of seminars that we initiated around from 2022 to 2024 just trying to bring people back to Ruskin, to create a space where people could discuss issues related to inequality, present ideas, and think about policy solutions as well. And we have our 20 contributors. They're drawn from higher education, they're drawn from civil society, they're drawn for the world of politics. So we have two ex ministers. There is one ex conservative minister as well as an ex labor minister. We have two present labor MPs, one ex labor MPs. We have a strong presentation from those in the Labor Party, but those outside as well, looking at issues of regional equality, issues of lifelong learning, issues of how to address inequalities from birth. So a couple of very strong chapters on what needs to be done to affect educational equality that begins right from birth, infant, nursery and early years provision, chapters looking at importance of offering opportunities for learning throughout life, chapters looking at regional issues of inequality, the role of business as well as featured, how do we involve businesses in the private sector in terms of addressing inequality, and what does good business mean as well? What does stakeholder business mean as well? What is the role of business? So we have some of the challenging questions in the book, and its relevance, I think, is very much to today. I mean, we have a relatively new labor government here in the UK. Just over a year now, they've been in power, and while they focused on different things, they haven't focused as much on inequality as we'd like to. And it's a government, I think, that still needs ideas. It's looking for ideas and looking for policy solutions to many of the challenges the UK faces. I think some of them are offered and provided in this book, and I think for Ruskin as well, I alluded to some of the challenges you always have as a small provider. We do believe that we are now continuing the history of Ruskin. We're providing a space where we can come together and we can look at ideas, looking for challenges, and we have a series of events coming up over the next six months. We're hoping to announce soon we should build on the themes in the book as well.
Adam Lang 28:17
Okay, well, that's brilliant. Thank you very much. Again, we're talking about things that relate to the UK particularly. Do you think I'm just going to ask this question? It will probably provoke a long answer. But if we could just be fairly short on that, what do you think about social class? Is it something that is back now for academics to think about more than perhaps they have been in the past, or is it just a sort of UK phenomenon we international students shouldn't be worried about? I mean, because I came to a conference recently, which I think was entitled, ‘Is class back?’
Graeme Atherton 28:56
I think the answer is probably 'Yes' in the UK.
Adam Lang 28:59
So what do you think to that?
Graeme Atherton 29:01
It’s never been away in the UK, really class, social class and economic divisions. The idea is that many people think that in the UK, we talk a lot about social economic division and social class, and perhaps less discussed in other countries. Yet social economic divisions exist across the world. We're just doing a study back to our higher education participation work, which we're releasing on world access to education Day, which looks at the data available on higher education participation by socio economic background across the world. We've got data from 150 countries in the world on higher education participation by socio economic background, and it's unequal in every of those 150 countries. And if you think about some of the political challenges facing the world at the moment, a lot of that is grounded in inequality. What we see is communities and groups in the world who feel they've been neglected by governments of different complexions. In the past 20 to 30, 40, years, and seeing answers, unfortunately, in simplistic offerings through the frame of often migration and challenge, when a lot of this is founded in inequality. While not many countries might talk about social class the way we talk about it in the UK, social economic division exists in those countries as well, and actually in countries where it's prevailing, in countries where we didn't think as it did before.
Adam Lang 30:24
Well. Thank you very much. Now I'm going to pass over to my colleague, Dr Kamille Beye who is in Maryland, USA. Kamille, do you have any follow up points or questions you'd like to ask Graeme?
Kamille Beye 30:37
So I'd love your presentation. As I mentioned before, I'm working in access to and so some of the things you talked about resonate with me very deeply. One as a first generation college graduate, college student, I understand the whole idea about not the whole idea I understand deeply about providing access to those who don't have access. Anyway, I'm just gonna get myself together for a second. All right, so I want to talk to you about the issues of accreditation and quality access and resource challenge environments. And so this idea about accreditation, I'm thinking about my own PhD. So I did my work in Liberia, and Liberia is deeply connected to the US, as former slaves and freed people went back to Liberia to establish the country as it was. And when they arrived in Liberia, the blacks who were not able to get educated in the US educated themselves in Liberia with the idea that the indigenous could not be educated. And so now fast forward 2020, 2018 they have free education and the issue of false degrees and lack of resources, but still, this desire to be educated is prevalent in that society. And so I was just thinking about, what do we do when you have these one these structures, these economical and these social structures that have changed the education landscape for those who are marginalized, while keeping the high standards for themselves. If that makes sense, am I just rambling?
Graeme Atherton 32:27
But yeah. I mean, I think yeah, there are difficulties here aren't there? I mean, yeah, I think that's your point about demand for I think you talk about demand for education as well. In my experience of visiting and working in countries across the Global South, the demand for education is strong. Demand for education is very strong. It's very strong. And it moves quicker than the ability of the systems to cope with that. And then when you see that happening, what comes to fill the vacuum is a plethora of other kinds of provision of where quality is sometimes an issue, understanding of value is an issue as well, and how you work your way through that is therefore difficult. You know you need strong leadership. You need clarity of systems.
And I was also thinking when you mentioned in your conversation about the relationship between Liberia and the United States. So there, between what you see is a developing system and an established system. I think there's a lot to think about there as well. I mean, if you think about the UK system in higher education, a lot of UK universities have relationships with providers across the global South, or they've established campuses in the global south. So international partnerships in higher education is a growth area for UK education systems and pops of growth area for other storage systems as well. What do these partnerships really look like from their equity? Are these partnerships ones that are designed to financially benefit certain well established systems and institutions, or are genuine partnerships that are there to establish and grow and develop both systems that are in that partnership. I think those are key questions to consider.
I mean, I wrote a piece for university World News two three weeks ago, bleeding up to our head. We're positing somebody's questions about what these equitable partnerships really look like, because I'm not sure. I think in some instances, you know, partnerships are around, say, financial gain, etc. Are they really about equity and supporting the development of systems in other parts of the world, which needs to be owned and developed in those contexts. Because, again, even thinking about what systems look like is different. You know what we see as the development of a system for the frame of a system we understand, we think it should look something like what we've experienced or we have here. It may look something quite different. I'm not sure. All because this is a new area, isn't it, you're going to really grow in certain countries that we're referring to. You've worked, I'm sure, and visited professionally, and otherwise, the development of a system that emits 2030, 40% of the population into, may not be a mirror of what a 34% system looks like that we've experienced in the US, UK, you're in Europe. So actually building something we don't know, we don't know what's gonna look like yet.
Kamille Beye 35:26
Essentially, yeah, and I was thinking, as you said, international partnerships. I've seen cases where well established schools in the West go into poor or less resourced countries, and they fail because the quality doesn't remain the same. So, I want to ask another question about equity in this AI technology race. So we already know that there are digital divides all over the place, and so as we move into AI and there's this talk about jobs being replaced, how do we work with governments to help them understand that curriculums need to change to address some of these technological issues by but also still giving students their critical thinking skills, problem solving skills, etc, that they need, not just for the work but daily life.
Graeme Atherton 36:12
No, no, this is an important question. I think that in curriculum terms, again, we often see educational systems move more slowly than technology moves. So possibly, while technology moves quickly, examples of some of the tools that students can use for their learning, we're moving behind that a little bit. But again, we need systems to catch up. Need to catch up quickly to somebody's issues. I think engagement to students is important in this as well. If you see rapid change, it's those who are experiencing those changes who should be key stakeholders in this. You know, are we working with our own students, both through school and through higher education, to really understand that they're experiencing learning? You know, in schooling systems, you know, we tend to think that we, as all the generations, really know what it means to have your learning frame digitally or to be engaged in our related learning. But yes, it is. We don't think we do. You know my children at school now, I think I know what it means to be that age. I'm a governor of a school. Actually I don't, because four years older, but I think I do. So to what extent are we engaging their voices in some of these changes, remembering their students, both in school and in education? So it's not about giving responsibility. It's engaging them within that conversation, particularly with regards to artificial intelligence, those areas as well. I think even how that becomes part of the curriculum, narratives are important. I mean, it's not just about jobs as well and employment. It's about understanding truth and understanding reality, understanding representation as well. What we don't, certainly in school systems within I know it's like in us, but in the UK, we've never done a good job, really, at looking at issues that transcend subjects. We think within academic subjects, we think you do history, do geography, you do maths, you do English, when it's been sort of in a curriculum that looks beyond that. It's not seen as important. There's no examination anyway, we won't turn up for that. That's the bit we've only taken seriously. Something like this transcends the nature of all subject areas. We don't, we don't just deal with those things very well, because we think in subject related lines. So that's another challenge that we have to really think about, because this sort of change will encompass effects on all subject areas differently, of course, when you deal with in subject silo, but essentially, it's issues like issues of citizenship. It's the focus of our series, your series shuts out all of that. We don't deal with that very well, particularly in the schooling system in the UK. I'm not sure how many of us do as well.
Kamille Beye 38:49
Then my last question, and just because of time, I have many more I would love to ask you, but I wanted to ask you, particularly as you talked about regional inequality in the UK, and I'm thinking about just inequality here in the US and other places. How do you continue to keep the voice of migrants and minorities and displaced people in higher education conversations in light of these populist governments taking form today, trying to exclude so I'm just curious, what is your thought on that, and how do you continue providing access to some of these marginalized communities in this interesting space.
Graeme Atherton 39:25
I think it's crucial that we try and engage with this issue, but retain our beliefs. I mean, I think you have to retain the view that there is both an economic and social good to extending access to education for all backgrounds. That's important. That's important to retain that key principle we have to advocate strongly for what we do. Seek our political allies. I mean, it is a difficult, challenging time, but at the same time, you know, there are many who support the work that we do, the work we believe in, and it's important to retain, build those coalitions. You know. You always have to be prepared. I mean, I think that it's notable, possibly what we can learn from the US experience in this regard for other countries. Because if this indeed is going to be, if what happens in the US is going to be followed by others, it's crucial that we learn now for what is, what resistance strategy is being deployed in your own particular context. Can I say I mentioned to you before the conversation started out recently at an event in New Orleans bringing together organizations across the US who were working in the area of college equity. And it struck me at the event how important it is that we in the UK, who are involved in this area of work as well as engaging with us colleagues who are at the forefront of the challenges now, see what we can learn if indeed these things come down the line to us in the future. And I'm not saying they come down the line now, I mean, we have a Labor government in the UK, but at the same time, we are seeing that government lean towards some almost populist ideas to try and retain their belief that its support or their political challenges, they finish well.
On the other part of your question about are we ensuring that those who have migrant backgrounds and others are still represented and engaged? I think those who are involved in organizations, who lead organizations or initiatives, it was really important for me that they continue to really focus on what voices are engaged in, in their organizations, and often even these organizations. It can be the case that you will, you will lean to a certain group of speakers, or in seminars we do. It's really important that we make sure we offer voices to all of those in our constituencies, to ensure the authenticity of those voices as well. It's really important we try and do that, and we work hard to do that and to ensure that happens. But that's what goes across that's easier, but we're an organization that's focused on that anyway. But I think in broader organizations, those within universities or leadership positions, because much as it feels like, yes, things are tough and difficult for this work at the moment, that you know, we all have some element of response of power here as well. You know, power is diffused to society as well. We can influence important things. It is important. We may retain the belief we can do that, but by doing that, we must remain faithful to the principles that we believe in.
Kamille Beye 42:28
I totally agree.
Adam Lang 42:29
Thank you Kamille. Thank you Kamille for those questions, and thank you very much, Graeme for your enthusiastic engagement today and your contributions. Is there anything just as we draw this session to a close, is there anything that you haven't touched on that you'd just like to let us know about or not, or are you happy with how we've gone so far?
Graeme Atherton 42:50
I'd just like to say that I welcome any of your listeners who want to engage in these issues by contacting us through the World Access to Education Network, looking for us online, or contacts with Ruskin as well. We're always open to discussions and collaborations. I mean, as I said at the end of the conversation before with Kamille, you know, how can we continue to influence and support and engage and take forward the things that we believe to be most important? We do that via collaboration, via partnership and discussion. So it's an open invite to any of your listeners who want to get in touch, who want to explore ways of being engaged in the work that I'm involved in and I am happy to do so. So please, you know, if you feel interested, do reach out?
Adam Lang 43:34
Well, thank you very much indeed. Now, I'm just going to wrap up the session, if I may, Professor Graeme Atherton, thank you. Thanks for your time today. It's been a pleasure hearing about your work, Ruskin College and your personal story, which is very, very interesting indeed. And will people now go to Blackpool, I'm sure now to be sure
Graeme Atherton 43:56
They were looking on the website now to find a place that's got a tower smaller than the Eiffel Tower. Please go. Weather can be a bit questionable at times. Bring a car.
Adam Lang 44:13
So I'm going to close the episode now. I'm Dr Adam Peter Lang from UCL. Thank you for listening to conversations4citizenship. We hope you all enjoyed this episode. Be sure to subscribe to conversations for citizenship and look out for us on X @c4c_ed and bluesky @c4cpodcast.bsky.social, a transcript of today's conversation with Professor Graeme Atherton can be found at www.conversations4citizenship.com , this episode of conversation for citizenship was produced by myself, Adam Lang, Stella Cheong and Kamille Beye and recorded and sound mixed by Stella Cheong. Many thanks indeed, everybody. Take good care. Goodbye.